It's even worse than just the same flight number. Both were at PHX, one landing, one taking off at the same time. Kudos to a clever ATC for preventing what could've been a catastrophe: https://youtu.be/93lLXNsWp9Q
The YouTube video you link to is actually about a separate incident from the one described in the article. The video is about an incident involving two AAL2482s near Phoenix; the article is about an incident involving two AA5083s near Providence.
It's the same idea though; one was inbound, the other outbound, and ATC had to distinguish between the two.
Not to mention the huge WTF factor of them being in different parts of their flight and the instant issues that would cause when the ATCs try to do anything with them.
"Hey why did you just tell a flight that's on approach to taxi"
“Everything that has an ICAO code is on Earth”, and “flights are at most a few days long”. The whole list makes you despair of structuring any data, ever.
I'd like to hear more from someone in the industry about the resolution to this problem. As I understand it, we're trading a small non-zero risk of mistaken identity for the streamlined communication of using four digits rather than five (which carries its own non-zero benefit to safety). This has become a problem because airline consolidation means some of them operate so many flights per day that their limited pool of numbers dictate that they reuse them for either direction.
Could we resolve this by swapping one number for a letter? 26 options instead of 10 raises the pool substantially. Letters A-J indicate inbound, K-Z outbound? Or westbound/eastbound.
Too much complexity. It would be simpler for IATA to approximate GA conventions of using partial registration numbers, perhaps 2 to 4 suffix characters depending on traffic conditions. It's overly verbose and slower to announce the brand or callsign of an airline followed by the low density decimal flight number.
The format is SSIM defined by IATA - the international association of transport airlines. It specifies two letter airline code followed by four digit flight.
Given how long humans have had to implement or fix the most basic of shit (some major apps with millions of users still don't have a Dark Mode, for example) maybe handing the reigns to AI is for the better after all..
The US is really weird with flight numbers and I don't think any other country in the world does it the same way.
You often get flights sharing the same flight numbers such as JFK-SLC and SLC-SFO being the same flight number, even if it's a completely different plane doing the route!
Also super confusing when trying to search for your (or a loved one's) flight online as you'll get multiple matches.
Sound like that would be absolute pain if not for customer anyone who just got flight number and wanted to track the process. Or at least I took that as having multiple flights leaving at different times during the day... Couldn't you even have different flights departing at same time with same number in weirdest case?
It's even worse than just the same flight number. Both were at PHX, one landing, one taking off at the same time. Kudos to a clever ATC for preventing what could've been a catastrophe: https://youtu.be/93lLXNsWp9Q
The YouTube video you link to is actually about a separate incident from the one described in the article. The video is about an incident involving two AAL2482s near Phoenix; the article is about an incident involving two AA5083s near Providence.
It's the same idea though; one was inbound, the other outbound, and ATC had to distinguish between the two.
[edit: Corrected locations.]
The probability of it becoming a catastrophe was infinitesimally low with the existence of TCAS.
Not to mention the huge WTF factor of them being in different parts of their flight and the instant issues that would cause when the ATCs try to do anything with them.
"Hey why did you just tell a flight that's on approach to taxi"
"What do you mean they're right here?"
"No they're on final you twat"
"No this is Patrick"
????????
<issue straightened out>
Reminds me of the excellent, and frequently surprising https://flightaware.engineering/falsehoods-programmers-belie..., which includes surprising false statements like:
“Everything that has an ICAO code is on Earth”, and “flights are at most a few days long”. The whole list makes you despair of structuring any data, ever.
Falsehoods airlines believe about flight numbers.
Well, and ATC. Airliners’ callsigns are their flight numbers.
Iirc, AA/Sabre knows that a flight identifier is actually carrier+flight number+origin airport+departure date.
But who all calls someone by their full name all the time??
> American assigns the same flight number to the outbound and return services, with the same aircraft typically operating both legs.
So they could just not do that.
Maybe they ran out of numbers I mean there are only so many...
We need IPv6 for aircraft identification.
Lol
I'd like to hear more from someone in the industry about the resolution to this problem. As I understand it, we're trading a small non-zero risk of mistaken identity for the streamlined communication of using four digits rather than five (which carries its own non-zero benefit to safety). This has become a problem because airline consolidation means some of them operate so many flights per day that their limited pool of numbers dictate that they reuse them for either direction.
Could we resolve this by swapping one number for a letter? 26 options instead of 10 raises the pool substantially. Letters A-J indicate inbound, K-Z outbound? Or westbound/eastbound.
Alphanumeic call signs are already used around the world [0], it's just that the US (like many other aviation fields) is behind the times.
[0] https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/aviation-explainer-series...
Too much complexity. It would be simpler for IATA to approximate GA conventions of using partial registration numbers, perhaps 2 to 4 suffix characters depending on traffic conditions. It's overly verbose and slower to announce the brand or callsign of an airline followed by the low density decimal flight number.
The format is SSIM defined by IATA - the international association of transport airlines. It specifies two letter airline code followed by four digit flight.
I'm sure various ATC systems also assume this.
Changing it would be an industry-wide effort.
Which airlines have 10,000 flights in progress at time?
ChatGPT says AA have the most, 1500 planes - 4 digits is plenty.
[dead]
It happened again 2 days later with 2x AA2482. ATC distinguished them by their phases of flight and locations, and by pilots' voices.
https://youtu.be/Bb8uYlc_ATo
(This is from August 19, it was widely reported at the time.)
Two planes, the same airport, crossing paths.
What amazes me is that their software has never been updated to support flight numbers longer than 4 digits.
Theres a simpler change, how is it possible to allocate numbers without first verifying said number is unique.
What would the short term ROI on that change be? That’s all they care about.
Would not be very convenient to view on a radar screen.
Europe for one have used alphanumeric flight numbers for years.
Given how long humans have had to implement or fix the most basic of shit (some major apps with millions of users still don't have a Dark Mode, for example) maybe handing the reigns to AI is for the better after all..
Certainly couldn't get any worse, I mean
(I am not AI)
Dark mode probably doesn’t generate revenue
Root cause:
> American assigns the same flight number to the outbound and return services, with the same aircraft typically operating both legs.
Other airlines don’t do this, and instead assign a different flight number to the return flight.
The US is really weird with flight numbers and I don't think any other country in the world does it the same way.
You often get flights sharing the same flight numbers such as JFK-SLC and SLC-SFO being the same flight number, even if it's a completely different plane doing the route!
Also super confusing when trying to search for your (or a loved one's) flight online as you'll get multiple matches.
The US obstinately behind the rest of the world in many ways.
American exceptionalism at its finest.
Alaska does the same too. Especially with their shorter flights, you might have more than 2 of the same flight per day.
Sound like that would be absolute pain if not for customer anyone who just got flight number and wanted to track the process. Or at least I took that as having multiple flights leaving at different times during the day... Couldn't you even have different flights departing at same time with same number in weirdest case?
"Hey ChatGPT, could you find me a suitable number for this flight?"
UUID is the obvious answer. "d4580737-1168-4399-b747-8a5e7af5fc97, climb and maintain 14000" just rolls off the tongue.