I find it strange to see people writing articles like this as if everyone has used AI for decades. I've programmed for decades. I thought I retired three years ago but got an offer I couldn't refuse. Already there were little things I'd forgotten how to use.
Over the past six months I tried using Claude, chatgpt, Grok and Gemini. At best I got reminders of how things worked. People online say they use them to write their code. The code they supplied to me has NEVER worked or was so convoluted that I threw it away and did it myself.
At most, I use these tools as search engines. Even then some references are poor.
I'm starting to think this is becoming a sad, sad world and AI is just the new TV of the programming world.
> The code they supplied to me has NEVER worked or was so convoluted that I threw it away and did it myself.
For me, it's like reading prose with "Not X, not Y, just Z": it's technically correct, but grates like fingernails on a chalkboard.
I have real trouble sometimes, reading what SOTA (Fable, etc) generate - no isolation or partitioning at all.
The worst was the planning an AI does. When I plan something, it'll be split according to data structures "An object to hold this, an intermediary for the obejct to talk to ORM, a serialiser for it that does this", etc.
The "plans" from SOTA are sometimes just hilarious. It'll go "phase one, implement these user-facing features. Phase two, implement those user-facing features", etc.
That's not a plan, it's an aspiration! A roadmap maybe. A plan, in my way of working, is a blueprint of where all the data goes, with algorithms connecting them. With AI, the data is incidental, the algorithms are incidental, only the goal (in the form of tests) remain. It'll work out some spur-of-the-moment idea around data at the time of writing.
So yeah, I do what you do and throw their stuff away. Currently having more success laying down a skeleton manually and then asking them to add a single feature at a time.
I think part of the problem -- answering all of why people are somehow OK with this, and even why the AI does this in the first place -- is that the majority of software developers never got to the point of understanding any of this: the lack of understanding how to carefully structure data surrounds a question they don't even know how to pose, much less answer, and so "write some tests then incrementally try to make them work without breaking any of the existing tests" is the only way they know how to develop at all. In the end, that means that, with the current state of the art (which might change, of course... potentially quickly), your strategy of treating the AI as a junior engineer who fundamentally isn't ready to do your senior-level architecture job makes a lot of sense.
1) The size of task the AI has been given to do appears to be too big, which is why it looks like a roadmap/aspiration. You can ask it to implement a single feature or even a single part of a feature. Just keep cutting the size of the tasks until you become comfortable with it.
2) You like plans in a particular way following data structures/data etc. have you actually told the models this. It doesn't magically know. For the record the fact that the models focus on the end behaviour covered with tests is the way to to it imo. The actual implementation is less important and can be refactored as you wish fairly easily with the AI with the tests ensuring the feature still works.
I do agree though that the current SOTA models are very keen to just implement absolutely everything straight away without explaining/exploring properly. You can customise it fairly easily by using the various skills/agent/claude files to remember your preferred workflow, imo the agents adhere to theses better than they used to even just a few months ago.
With Claude and Codex, you can specify exactly how you want the plan and code to be researched and written. That goes into your rules file. (Claude.md etc). Also, make them read the existing code so they can follow the patterns.
i'm using LLMs/GenAI to do one thing: write unit tests.
since i really don't follow the idea of "writing unit tests first", i implement the feature, test as a user, and then use LLMLs to write the basic unit test. then, i will write more tests to make sure i'm covering everything.
feels like an ok-ish compromise because LLMs can do some ok job with defensive code, while i maintain the main implementation and more advanced test scenarios.
My experience was similar to yours, upon till earlier this year. Now the code which comes out of Claude code is acceptable most of the time.
It usually takes me two or three iterations to get there though. Discussing design and principles before writing the bulk of the code is a must. And then a pass or two of review to weed out ugliness.
Still saves time compared to writing the code by hand. Especially for tricky things, where type checking and tests can verify correctness.
>It usually takes me two or three iterations to get there though.
That's the whole problem with AI imo and I think the slot machine analogy is mostly right. It's just not predictable whatsoever and then you won't even be able to review all of the thousands of lines of code that you generate. You never know what you get and this has some serious safety implications that are not acceptable. Yes, it's fine as chat to just generate some snippets here and there that can be easily reviewed. Agentic coding is horrible imo.
> It usually takes me two or three iterations to get there though. Discussing design and principles before writing the bulk of the code is a must. And then a pass or two of review to weed out ugliness.
Am I crazy, or hasn't it been this good for a very long time? The ability to get code out of it after correcting it, correcting it, specifying and respecifying, instrumenting and reinstrumenting, reviewing and demanding refactoring, "no not like that", etc. has been there (for me) nearly from the start. They're great when you're working on something you're not an expert at, and fine if you're working on something that you are pretty good at (if you like to have a cheerleader that sometimes trips and falls on her face.)
My problem is that they don't understand some things that are very clear, and after you've corrected them to get them on track, you're exhausted. You put all of those corrections into a file for them so that when they make the same mistake in the next session you won't have to wrack your brain correcting them, then they a) ignore the file, or b) make a bunch of spurious objections because they were all ready to object and the saved response killed all of the content of those objections. They still seem remarkably dumb.
>>after you've corrected them to get them on track
They all still insist on serving bash code for FreeBSD where bash is not native. I've had to correct them all this whole year and they apologize profusely but, the next time, still use bash.
Note: you can install and run bash on FreeBSD. It's just not in the base installation or usage and I do not use it there.
I've explained to Claude Opus and Fable how rg is recursive by default so they shouldn't run it with -r. It's in my CLAUDE.md file. It's in a memory too. And still the newest versions of those models make the mistake several times per week.
The phrasing makes it sound like you are using them through a chat interface. Have you tried something like Claude Code? The real value only starts materialising once it has sufficient access to your environment.
I find LLMs are a hit&miss. Can be great at rewriting a function from lang A to lang B. Fails completely at a refactor. Great at coming up with a bunch of networking hosts/IPs to test a particular func. Fails when doing simple validation. Great for prototyping an alternative UI but not even remotely production ready. Always confident regardless of whether the result is correct or false. Run it three times with same query get 3 different results etc. Plenty of claims online how people have become a 1000x developer but 0 actual examples of working code in production. Given they're stochastic by design all of this makes sense in a way.
There's no clear path moving forward. Overreliance on LLMs means your knowledge will exponentially decay and you will absolutely crash any future tech interviews becoming unemployable. Not using it for some quick wins feels wasteful. Finding balance between the two extremes in addition to all existing software development woes is really hard.
You would probably be surprised by how many jobs require that you use AI - I even had an interview where it was strongly encouraged to use it during the technical phase. I guess what I’m getting at is, for many people this isn’t really a choice.
Did you set up context? Did you run it in existing code base? Do you have linters, unit tests?
I have JIRA mcp wired up I tell agent to pick up the ticket it makes a feature. I review PR deploy to test server click happy flow through.
It works for me and company I work for. There is a world of difference between using Claude Code, Cursor configured properly and just using copy paste code with chat interface.
I am always baffled by how people take their experience as „this is ultimate truth”.
>I am always baffled by how people take their experience as „this is ultimate truth”.
People are just recounting their experiences. It’s true my first experiences were all terrible with AI, I’m still just getting to a workable experience. It’s better when it can iterate a bit, that hides the fact that the first pass might have hallucinated junk that is smoothed over in subsequent passes.
> Over the past six months I tried using Claude, chatgpt, Grok and Gemini. At best I got reminders of how things worked. People online say they use them to write their code. The code they supplied to me has NEVER worked or was so convoluted that I threw it away and did it myself.
I've been finding AI either works great for people or is just awful, and I'm having a hard time pinpointing where the problem is. I don't think there's a big intelligence gap between us, so it's not like others wouldn't be noticing the things you're claiming when using AI. I genuinely believe your experience has been bad, but the part I'm trying to figure out is why it's been bad.
So my questions are: have you given things a fair shot? Have you tried turning things on its side to see if approaching AI usage a different way results in significantly better and more useful results? Do you actually put thought into what you're writing in your prompts (i.e., if I took your prompt and gave it to a junior dev, would they know what to do)? Are you just using the free models available online or do you have a dedicated integration into your development environment through Github Copilot or other vendor(s)?
I mean what I'm about to say with zero offense, but this honestly reminds me of how the elderly generation says, "technology doesn't work for me because it's always broken", and when you go and try to coach them on how to use the technology that's problematic for them, it's as if you're casting black magic.
I don't think AI is the second coming of Christ or that we're anywhere near AGI, but I do believe it's an extremely useful tool that people should be using.
> So my questions are: have you given things a fair shot? Have you tried turning things on its side to see if approaching AI usage a different way results in significantly better and more useful results? Do you actually put thought into what you're writing in your prompts (i.e., if I took your prompt and gave it to a junior dev, would they know what to do)? Are you just using the free models available online or do you have a dedicated integration into your development environment through Github Copilot or other vendor(s)?
That any of this would be needed is a problem on the AI side, not the user side. It can't be expected that everyone puts in hours of upfront work, trying out models and different ways of working just to see if AI is there yet for them, every time a new SOTA model comes out. Time is limited.
Also, the more thought, time, and effort needs to be put into prompts, the less useful AI is.
> I took your prompt and gave it to a junior dev, would they know what to do?
While overall I'm getting decent enough results, the AI often makes mistakes that no human would make, like not styling or aligning a new button on a webpage the same as the buttons right next to it. In general, it has major trouble with having a coherent vision of the entire project.
It's also obedient to a fault, never pushes back on anything I suggest. I'm pretty sure if I asked for a low user value feature that nevertheless would have to increase backend complexity 10x, it would go ahead and just code it, no questions asked.
> I don't think AI is the second coming of Christ or that we're anywhere near AGI, but I do believe it's an extremely useful tool that people should be using.
Ah, same. Just remember, we're very early into LLMs, they're still very much a sharp tool for experts, not really safe or convenient to use for everyone (yet?).
I mean, that's why it's not writing good code then, since if you're not using it with an actual harness then it can't read your current code and contribute. Also there is a huge gap between models made more than 1 year ago now versus today's models.
My employer pays for Claude, and my approach is to use it as a better Google search. It's often not better.
Just today it made three glaring mistakes in one session:
1. It read a file in the wrong directory, because that file had the same name as the file in the right directory. It apologized when I challenged it, promising me that it would remember to "read import statements" in the future.
2. It miscounted the number of times a function was called in my repo. It said 20, while my built-in IDE search accurately showed 17. Again, it apologized when I corrected it.
3. It referred to a variable by name that does not exist anywhere in my code. It apologized, and said it was referring to a variable used internally by one of the third-party packages installed in my repo.
So many apologies.
It's the little things like this that remind me on a regular basis just how little I can trust artificial "intelligence."
I have had a ton of success in exposing AST-based tools to agents when working in large, old codebases.
Without them, not only do agents get simple things like function call counts wrong, they tend to return different results. I use this as an example when showing people how the tooling works.
Grep is fine for simple use cases. A step up from that is ast-grep and I need to explore this tool more. But I had the most success building a small pipeline that reads the old code base, parses it file by file using tree sitter, and then loads it into a SQLite database for querying. For example, I have it capture construct definitions and usages and represent those as directed edges and nodes in a single table depending on the node type. The agent is instructed on how to query it and perform interesting queries like build call graphs, or determine dependencies between domains (modularity is not great in this codebase) which is helpful for us to extract around capability lines.
I also calculate fitness statistics, and have some code to capture specific details and knowledge about this very old framework that short circuits agent work in the future. We have some “interesting” magical libraries and functions that block static analyzers from going beyond the call site. This is mitigated, and means agents don’t have to “guess”.
Making all of this available to the different team members at my work has been pretty helpful. It’s faster (fewer tool calls), cheaper (fewer tokens), and accurate.
It's a small tangent but I am constantly taken aback by just how much the discourse here has slid from nerdom to dorkeyness. All the talk here used to be pendantic and technical and overly complex nerd speak, always stuck in the process itself, feeling above being a 'user', etc.
Now everything is just like above, dorkspeak. Where it reminds me so much more of kids arguing in the playground about "who would win in a fight Darth Vader or Batman"; or console-vs-PC debates. Everything is about the genuine complexity of navigating certain products, of being first and foremost a consumer of something and putting all your energy into comparing various things you are free to choose from.
Its not even like its less techincal, or more mean now, or anything like that. It's just very different and I know its been a while but it feels like it happened overnight.
I call it the redditification of HN. The trend has been massively increased with Corona, and now post AI it's essentially the norm.
People can't even discuss about any politics anymore.
Back in Obama's days there were always interesting discussions in the political threads and they were rarely insta flagged. And it was mostly nuances wrt business needs and what that means for our societies. The PRISM news also frequently got heated, and still stayed somewhat technical.
Extremely noticable compared to the platform it is today.
Tbf though, HN always had a few topics it was extremely irrational about.
As one of the users that moved to HN when Reddit closed access to third party apps it’s also quite literally this. I apologize for any reduction in quality of discourse I might have caused.
What made you want to move over? Are you just desperate for a venue to talk, desperate enough that if your venue of choice changes its API you'll go to another place with other norms?
>It's a small tangent but I am constantly taken aback
I'm amused by your surprise.
>Its not even like its less techincal
I'd wager that, actually, it is less technical. We constantly see otherwise very techinical people here poking their heads up and admitting that they haven't been writing any code for 6 months or more, and the ones that brag about it are seemingly unaware that they've been reduced to being a technical PM (the ones that contest this probably havent worked with capable technical PMs). No one wants to engage with vibe-coded Show HN entries because the poster may not grasp the implementation. No one appears to be doing (or sharing) anything super novel with all this coding superpower they have suddenly attained so there's nothing technically interesting to talk about. The last time I found an AI application submission interesting was the one where the person was trying to turn their pet's random keyboard typing into a language (if I remember correctly).
If the guidelines banned any AI comments that didn't preface their comment with the model and version of AI they used, their application domain, and the programming language being used I'm sure there would be less contentious dorky debate and more technical/practical discussion.
And since many here don't see the endgame with AI resulting in anything good for their career or society, like the endless remote work debates, they comment because from a strategic point of view they do not want to cede the narrative to the other side on such an important topic. understandably. hence more dorky debates.
> No one wants to engage with vibe-coded Show HN entries because the poster may not grasp the implementation.
> No one appears to be doing (or sharing) anything super novel with all this coding superpower they have suddenly attained so there's nothing technically interesting to talk about.
I am skeptical of letting AI do everything as well but this does seem like your using a less capable model. Fable doesnt really do this. In my experience it does just "get" what to do given a clearly defined and measurable outcome
Are you using the best models? I feel like my experience is completely different. I am an expert in a small part of a huge monolithic codebase that I’ve worked in for years. When customers report issues that would take me days or weeks to debug, AI can figure it out on the first try.
>You ARE taking days or weeks to go and check, yes?
I've never taken weeks to go and check bugfixes in the before times, I don't see why I'd expect it now. Once we know what the cause of the bug is, validating the fix and writing a test for it is usually trivial.
Yes, but it’s usually only hours to validate. I understand the codebase so I have the intuition to know almost immediately if the theory makes sense. Validating and reproducing the root cause is often an order of magnitude easier than identifying a production-reported issue.
I'm amused at how many hacker news accounts saw this and immediately jumped to the conclusion that you either were using the model wrong or using the wrong model.
ive been regularly seeing this exact reaction online since November 2025, sadly :/
It's just a little baffling to see someone describe a level of performance I haven't experienced since 2025, despite frequently using the tech, as being a frequent concern.
Might be the type of projects you are working on and how much you care about performance and code quality.
Working on more complex, logic heavy projects with strong performance needs I find the models to be useful but certainly not 'one shot' on pretty much anything. And often incredibly frustrating and genuinely bad code that collapses performance and bloats systems - like what a really bad junior might write.
When I'm working on large standard crud web projects with already decent architecture and a good harness and skills, honestly they work pretty well a lot of the times, the code looks good, does what it needs and fits in with the architectural style.
I really think a lot of hn people just write simple repetitive software, and a small portion works on complex, weird, dense, and novel'ish logic projects. The two obviously don't have the same experiences.
To a first approximation, since 2025 was at best a year ago, it's not reasonable to be so surprised that the improvements in that time weren't enough for some use case. There's only so much anything can improve in a year.
> I'm amused at how many hacker news accounts saw this and immediately jumped to the conclusion that you either were using the model wrong or using the wrong model.
Yes, so I'll disclose it: I was using Opus 5.5, on medium effort, in Claude desktop, which has full access to my entire repo.
Now everyone can officially lambast me for "using the model wrong or using the wrong model," exactly as you say. But I find it quite interesting that one of the commenters here assumed I was using Opus 4.6, because these mistakes sound like that old version! I'm using the version released just four freaking days ago!
I expect some commenters will now say, "Oh, you should have been using Fable, you old boomer." To them I say: "Yeah, well my employer doesn't allow me to use Fable." And, in jest: "Now get off my lawn."
Exactly this. If you were using the exact model today that 6-12 months ago people here were telling you "absolutely does not make this kind of mistake anymore" they'd tell you the same thing again, just replacing $OLDER_MODEL with $NEWER_MODEL. Why did $OLDER_MODEL not make this mistake 6-12 months ago, but it does now? The answer to that question is obvious, but AI-bros cannot understand that.
It's basically impossible at this point to take these people seriously anymore.
I still do upfront planning and then do careful review of all AI content. The behavior the parent described above hasn't happened for me since around Opus 4.6.
The most telling one is counting function invocations wrong, because that's simply not how models work anymore. They use terminal commands and Python scripts for research like that (if not an LSP, if one took the time to set up their tools most effectively).
Combined with their attitude, I have little doubt that the parent has disabled tool calls, is working in some janky Harness like chat/Duo/Juno, or is using a severely reduced or outdated model.
What model are you using? The early stopping after hitting a wrong directory instead of continuing on, and the hallucinations suggests you are using a old model.
Yeah, I have never understood the over reliance on AI. Writing the code is not the challenge. The time it takes to push a new feature and test it out is often trivial, maybe a few hours.
The real challenge is forming the new ideas in the first place and most of those new ideas coming either from using the code as a product or time spent maintaining and refactoring large code.
Wriring the code is not the challenge, but it's what was taking up most of the time. Not the typing itself, but also because I had to think of how to implement it.
Now I can just say "add 2FA" and in 5 minutes, while I test something else, it is done.
It also made iterations a lot faster, you can try something out, see how it feels, if it doesn't work, you can just trash all the code and start again.
Haven't typed a line of code or read any code for over 6 months now.
And I used to love coding and be a competitive programmer, but this is how "coding" goes nowdays.
I have a mental model of what it would do, and how it would work, and I ask questions to confirm things and tell it to watch for specific gotchas. Then simply test the feature myself a bit.
Security-wise, I think the latest cyber models are better than me anyway at finding vulnerabilitates and pentesting such features.
Plus 2FA is a very common pattern, so it likely has in the training dataset many really good implementations.
> Security-wise, I think the latest cyber models are better than me anyway at finding vulnerabilitates and pentesting such features.
I don't doubt that, but they are equally good in making mistakes, over-engineering, or adding things you never asked for. They have all sorts of patterns in their training data from excellent to inadequate and I find them challenging to guide them consistently in one direction. Also with questions and tests, they can add something extra you didnt need and you dont know about, so your scrutinizing questions and test cases could miss that.
At least for myself, I didnt find them reliable enough yet to do what you describe and just not look at the code at all.
As someone who has an ide open with claude/codex running, I can never imagine leaving security up to models.
Models have found vulnerabilities that i wasnt aware of sure, but their fixes to the bugs they found often included "overengineering". In this case by "overengineering" i mean optimizing for passing test cases related to said vulnerability they found. eventually i have to step in to make things coherent and make sure that future agent can look at this part of my code and copy it to not introduce that particular class of vulnerability. Otherwise if i dont do that similar vulnerability and codesmell keep appearing throughtout the codebase.
I have increasingly automated encrypting and rotating secrets and setting permissions on them including better network level practices. Thanks to AI which helped me quickly implement those. So security wise i am better because of AI? But I also attribute it to my know how rather than the AI because I have never seen AI suggest robust but simple security postures.
This app[0] is entirely "vibe-coded", started on bolt.new which was like the OG way to vibe code and slowly improved over 1-2 years using various models.
I have no idea how the code looks like, and barely even tested the app entirely, because it is still not released yet, but I do think a lot about new features, tweaks, improvements, etc. Years of programming and game development did help, but I don't think anymore that code is relevant, as long as it looks ok and feels good.
Sort of, it's more of a heurisric of bugs found so far. There are very rarely any bugs, most of the changes I request are for tweaks/logic changes, not bug fixes. Usually things just work.
Also, I barely tested and kept changing things simply because of this: whatever I ask for, seems to work as expected.
No, it was about testing only. I will only do a full test of the app when it's ready to be released, otherwise it makes no sense, as the app/product/flow still changes a lot. It's like prototyping a game, you try it a few times, see what's fun, what's not, and keep iterating. Only once you think it's good enough, you can start fully testing and polishing it.
Even after release, I don't see reasons to check the code if everything works and people are happy with the app.
Right, I missed that context that this was about your own app still in getting the idea right/prototype phase. I was talking more in general and would be quite concerned if with today's LLMs it was my bank/government backend system, handling my financials and personal data, written without no one ever looking at the code.
Firefox had an unsupported missing WebAudio. It should be fixed now, and I've updated my workflow to also test on Firefox. Let me know if the crash was in a different browser (not Firefox).
It’s equally good at catching mistakes as it is at making them. So you put it in a loop, write code, make mistakes, catch mistakes, write code, make mistakes… etc. Eventually it converges and stabilizes. That process can take weeks. So the question is: when is it worth it versus not?
You are abdicating your responsibility, which is fine for toy apps for yourself, but less fine when people expect that 2fa implementation to protect their accounts.
I think it's the opposite, with the right guideance, testing, frameworks, and using the top models today, implementing something with AI is most of the times better than what most developers would do.
I basically only manually test e2e myself, other tests are automated, code review is automated. I can tell the model to test for me too specific things or to add tests for specific potential issues, performance benchmarks, compared different implementations, etc.
The focus is a lot more around the code than on the code.
1. If what you say is working, you have a working software factory that should be capable of matching the output of dozens of engineers.
What very impressive externally verifiable results have you had with this?
2. If you are working in software with plenty of customers, my strong suspicion is that there are people on your team who are looking at the code who furiously trying to reign in your output.
I make my own software, so no team to look over the code or be bothered by it. I don't even know how "vibe-coding" works in a team environment, because for me now it feels like it's "ideas to app" directly, so dumping by brain/ideas directly into a functional product.
I think this one is really cool[0], will be a free piano learning app. I do have other projects, but they are all at around 80% too, because some systems are shared amongst the projects and have to be finalized too (i.e. now I'm implementing my own transactional/marketing email service on top of Amazon SES, I need it before releasing ultimidi so people can register and receive email confirmations).
That is a cool app. But if you’d said you’d made it by hand in a few months I would have believed you.
If I had a working software factory like you describe, I’d expect you to have hundreds of apps of that level of complexity in a year.
> I don't even know how "vibe-coding" works in a team environment, because for me now it feels like it's "ideas to app" directly, so dumping by brain/ideas directly into a functional product.
But you don’t have any users much less paying users, so you have no idea if this system works when you do.
> I’d expect you to have hundreds of apps of that level of complexity in a year.
I am working at around 7-8 projects at the same time. The limit becomes me having to remember what I was doing for each one. AI can implement things nicely, but it really sucks at deciding which features and having its own ideas about novel game mechanics or UI/UX patterns.
I don't consider it a "software factory", just a more robust way to implement features, and it's still a WIP. One system I implemented locally is called "TaskHub", which receives some implementation or testing details from a SoTA mosel like Astra and implements it locally using Qwen 3.8 27b running on a RTX 3090.
I delegate things like app testing, navigating the app and taking screenshots, analyzing screenshots, etc.
And yes, this specific app doesn't have any users yet, I will launch it next week after I finalize the user authentication, payment flows and mobile apps. I will release it mostly as is, see user response, and then change it accordingly.
> I don't even know how "vibe-coding" works in a team environment, because for me now it feels like it's "ideas to app" directly, so dumping by brain/ideas directly into a functional product.
If you have a system that does “ideas to app directly”, that certainly sounds like what people are talking about when they say software factory. In fact my very large company would probably pay you millions if you could come in and make this work for our applications.
Hmm, my phrasing was ambigous, I didn't mean it's one idea fo one fully functional app.
But more of, one feature idea, that the AI can add to an app.
So it's not prompting "a gamefied piano learning app", but adding a single new feature like "add a minigame, where the user can control a character on the musical staff, [... 20 paraphs later ... ], make a good implementation plan, implement and test the app until everything is production-ready and bug free /goal"
That is a single "idea" that also requires a lot of fine-tuning after, but rarely in terms of code, most of the times it's only in terms of functionality and design choices.
> What very impressive externally verifiable results have you had with this?
I notice this weird hostility whenever the topic of AI coding comes up and it's never made much sense to me. If someone told me about their new method for practicing guitar I'd feel like a real tool if I demanded they prove it for me then and there.
People don't owe you their "very impressive externally verifiable results" - /u/XCSme already posted their app in another comment, it looked fine to me.
You've made your ideological position very clear here, you don't need to keep heaping it on.
More like, if someone told you their workout program that takes 5 minutes a day lets them lift the same weights as an average Olympic weightlifter, you'd ask to see the results.
I don’t care what somebody believes about the pile of code they’ve got sitting on their own computer. The appropriate level of engagement is sort of: well, they don’t owe us any evidence we don’t owe them any credulity, and if we’re all happy to ignore each other that’s fine.
I can see why some folks here want to quibble, though. In other comments in this thread, they’ve compared to code quality favorably to the output of an average developer. That’s slightly insulting to the field in general (although, I guess most programmers have a low opinion of average code quality).
If someone tells us about their new method for practicing guitar, it is very natural and not at all a toolish behaviour to hand them a guitar and say “go on, play us something”.
In fact it’s actually a very socially agreeable action, as it gives them the opportunity to show off their new skills without them looking like they’re bragging.
Now, if you happen to know for a fact that the guy cannot actually play guitar, then you’re just setting him up to embarrass himself, which is maybe an extreme punishment for the relatively minor crime of spouting some bullshit. I could buy that that is hostile, sure.
You don’t, that’s why in agentic world your codebase is only as good as what you can prove. For this reason, you’re going to see more languages evolving feature like capability permission, effect/coeffect types, refinement types, formal verifiers, strict type checkers, static analysis and so forth. Tests are only a small part of the verification. These ideas are old and have sat outside of the mainstream coding world, but the value proposition in the ai age has changed enough their relevance is renewed.
Not arguing for not reading test code. A lot can be achieved by instructing agents to balance out the testing pyramid with the right amount of fast end to end tests, property based tests for the right things, parametrized example based tests. Ensuring the local and CI has the right mix of tests running at right time. On projects where I have less time to review AI generated code I channel my anxiety into setting up guardrails and processes for the agents and then force them to bump up against them. In the end I view it as creating frameworks which allow me to outsource some of my attention to the agents, so that I can claw back some of that time to go set up more guardrails for more agents who are working on something else.
I trust a modern model implementing a standard feature like this much more than 99% of the people I've worked with.
People bash LLMs for overengineering but for this it's what you want. Taking extreme edge-cases into account that a human would never bother with and obsessing over security.
I mostly vibe coded a queuing system to replace something we’re using at work (last week. Spent about $1500). Then I meticulously went through the code.
It was much harder to review because it was ultra defensive and included guards for tons of edge cases that weren’t possible.
Unnecessary abstractions for possible extension later. Useless indirection. Probably 3x as much code as there would have been if I’d written it by hand.
I didn’t one shot this. I kept a pretty tight leash on the AI. I had probably a dozen markdown files with of plans that I created over hours of back and forth with the AI and reviewed before each implementation round. I had automated reviews and quality gates etc…
What I found in review was that it was full of very subtle bugs that would have bitten hard in prod. Committing offsets asynchronously that would lead to dropped messages. Clock drift bugs that would lead to dropped messages or write amplification storms. Lack of back pressure in some stages of the pipeline that would cause notes to get silently OOM killed. Weird over-insistence on never crashing in most places that would mask systemic errors.
If I’d just shipped it without review, it would have mostly worked. But at the scale it’s going to be used (tens of thousands of messages per second) it would have caused production issues for months while we tracked down each of these issues.
> included guards for tons of edge cases that weren’t possible
It's not possible until it is. This is the justification lazy developers like we all are have been using leading to bugs down the road. This glorification of hand-made code is strange, like we weren't writing dirty code full of shortcuts and hacks all the time.
The issue with LLM guarding isn't that it's "excessive" in outputting edge case handling, it's that the result often ends up just suppressing an error that actually indicates there is a bug or that should be handled elsewhere in a different way.
While I've definitely experienced it I don't think this is as much of a problem anymore. It's very easy to add an instruction to projects where you want every error to lead to a top-level throw rather than be handled. I also find that when it does try to mitigate it does so gracefully with a path you would actually make if you had infinite time, but your instinct tells you it's overkill.
> Haven't typed a line of code or read any code for over 6 months now
> I ask questions to confirm things
Oh my.
As someone who reads the code, I can tell you, asking questions to confirm things is inadequate. The models lie to me, daily.
Every day I have two experiences:
1. I’m blown away by what it can do
2. I say, ”wait, you said this, but the code shows that, so you were just going to leave that endpoint without requiring any authentication??” and I get the “you’re absolutely right, that was my mistake, and you’re right to call it out” song and dance. Daily.
It also adds all kinds of bloat to code, tests, and “documentation”. I’d say I spend ~30% of my dev time picking lines of code or documentation and asking, “why does this exist?” and “what would break if we deleted this line?” and then arguing with it and removing things.
Yeah, I agree, they are far from perfect and make a lot of mistakes.
Truth is, modern software was already quite shit and full of bugs. All major apps had bugs, issues, going down, etc, so users did get used to things not working. I honestly beleive AI coding nowadays, for better or worse, does things better than the average developer.
Yes, it is overly defensive and verbose, but the end result is in general ok and fully functional. Yes, it adds 30 tests and "release gates", and they are not even that useful, most of the times they just act as an extra safety mechanism to make parts of the code immutable, so release fails if the model accidentally changed things.
Another issue with looking at code, is that it's very hard to manually change things anyway. I can't just change a variable from 10 to 20, because I don't know where it is used. I have to ask the model to set that value to 20. It is quite stupid and inefficient, but this is one cost of coding using AI. But, if you do this, things will likely work.
That being said, I've mostly used Astra xhigh since it was released and things just work.
> Another issue with looking at code, is that it's very hard to manually change things anyway. I can't just change a variable from 10 to 20, because I don't know where it is used.
This should be a giant flashing red light. If you can't figure this out, either 1) you're too junior to be effective using AI, or 2) the AI is doing a truly awful job organizing the codebase. In either case, it's a sign to slow things down and understand what's happening before proceeding.
Is that that variable might be used in tests, UI, docs, agenr markdown files, other related projects too.
The design spec could say "always use 10px margin", then in code we have a const with value 10 used everywhere. If we update 10 manually in code to 20, then the design spec is now outdated.
Hmm, my experience is different. I noticed Astra always asks me to add credentials in a secure way, to never pasted them in chat, to rotate any potentially exposed tokens, etc.
I could probably look over, and get some snippets, but currently only the client-side is live, so the code is sort of there, albeit I assume it's minified for production.
The game seems quite bug free though, including minigames. The UI could be better, but it's not done yet.
I do for example have an automated system that simulates progression, takes screenshots of the game to find potential hidden buttons or overlapping elements, to test for performance, etc.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I honestly don't see why I would review 100k's of lines of code.
EDIT: I might have replied in a wrong thread, but it was about this entirely "vibe-coded" app: https://game.ultimidi.com
> If the core or that app is more than a few thousand lines of code, something is seriously wrong.
That's the thing about vibe-coding: it is not the core, it is the entire app. We no longer make MVPs and release those, with AI we can make directly the app including all bells and whistles, entire progression, not just one level, all the systems around it.
Why? Because if something needs changing, it's just one prompt away. I do think code is fluid now, any choice of architecture can be instantly changed at basically no cost.
Maybe my mind is just finding ways to cope, thinking that I "wasted" thousands of solving coding challenges and fixing bugs, but I do think, for better or worse, that manually coding is gone. Same as we no longer code in assembly anymore. We no longer write C. We no longer write JavaScript. We no longer write TypeScript. Maybe not today, people don't like change, but manually writing or even viewing code will only be done in a few educational and high-performance/risk cases.
An LLM isn’t a compiler because there’s no formal method for translating prompts to code. It’s chaotic and small changes in prompts will result in vastly different code.
Come back to me when your app has users and adding new features subtly (or not so subtly) breaks every work flow that you haven’t explicitly tested.
You can’t commit the prompt and regenerate the source code each time because the whole reason that an LLM is useful is that it makes thousands of decisions for you. And those decisions are different each time you regenerate.
The only way to enforce that those decisions are the same each time you regenerate is to encode all of them in tests. But at even moderate complexity that leads to an overconstraint problem that will halt development.
We see this when using LLMs on large apps. Anthropic gave up on their C compiler. Even with an unlimited budget they stopped being able to make progress on it.
I see this in some games I made for my 4 year old. I had them one shot some “juice” when he gets an addition problem right. Combination of screen shake, sounds, flashing light, explosions etc…
It looks pretty cool, but when I tried to tweak the animations with prompts it was always worse. I eventually went in and edited the code myself and I could see why it was so hard for the LLM to change anything because it was a horrific mess of interwoven animations.
I was able to pull everything apart and manually adjust what I wanted.
What helps is to ask the model to make design docs and to note down features and how they work in md files. It sort of provides another layer of persistence separate from code.
But yeah, overall you have to be ok with the app being approximate too. Maybe after an update a button is a different size, or in a different place, or it suddenly has an animation to it. Those smaller things are a bit harder to control when making changes at scale, and if not clearly documented.
For me this is not necessarily a big drawback, for things like games, the core game loop, performance and game feel are a lot more important than any small UI tweaks.
Hopefully, the better the models get, those side-effects will only be improvements, not degradations.
> But yeah, overall you have to be ok with the app being approximate too. Maybe after an update a button is a different size, or in a different place, or it suddenly has an animation to it. Those smaller things are a bit harder to control when making changes at scale,
Now come back to me when you have paying users.
Better yet come back when you have paying users who depend on your app to do their job. And in addition to buttons changing location, you are constantly breaking their work flows because they are using the app in ways you didn’t anticipate.
I only started using AI for development for this product (13 years developed without AI) a few months ago, and customers are really happy with the changes.
I managed to implement feature requests that were pending for years. It took probably 1 month to implement what would have taken 1 year without AI.
I’m talking about the vibe coded app you showed off earlier. If you’ve got another 15 year old app that is well architected and modular, you could probably get away with purely vibe coded improvements for a while without everything devolving into a tightly couple mess where the AI can’t touch X without changing Y.
>It took probably 1 month to implement what would have taken 1 year without AI.
1. I’m not saying that AI can’t speed you up. I’m only saying that you can’t ignore the code for anything beyond a toy app (at least not sustainably).
2. How much is that is down to motivation though? You’ve been developing something for 15 then years then suddenly there’s a brand new development methodology that is fun to mess around with and addictive.
> I’m only saying that you can’t ignore the code for anything beyond a toy app
I thought the same, but I do disagree with this now. Future software development will be mostly just creating black boxes and describing what the box should do, without ever caring what is inside the box. For now, we still have to guide the AI and tell what architecture it should likely use, or which libraries should use (just for the sake of performance and ease of development), but in the future this probably won't matter either. I honestly believe code does not matter anymore. What matters is knowing what to test when building an app, how to define performance metrics and knowing what is good/possible when developing an app. I know I won't be able to create a shooting game that supports 1 million CCU on a single vCPU. But I know that the input latency should feel good, and game should run smoothly at start and over time, to tell it to implement tests to check for memory leaks and avoiding JavaScript GC pauses, use object pooling when possible, etc. The complexity moves from telling how/what to code, to knowing exactly to tell it how things should behave and what's a good outcome. If I tell it "make sure bullets are object pooled", it will likely implement it properly, as object pooling is a very common pattern that exists in its training data, and it usually either works or doesn't, when it doesn't work there are obvious issues like objects shown at the wrong positions or not spawning properly, so the issues with the code would be reflected in e2e testing anyway.
2. That was both motivating and demotivating to be honest. The app was my "baby", having spent a lot of time designing everything, optimizing, carefully choosing libraries and make cool implementation decisions. Now I feel like all the newly added features are not really mine, and it doesn't even feel like my product anymore that I can proudly say: "hey, I wrote all the code for this app". It is a really demoralizing feeling, but at the same time, I like how all my ideas can now be materialized. And it actually works. And it works well. I am still getting used to the fact that I won't have full control or understanding of how the code works, and it pains me that this is the case, but there is no way I could achieve better results by manually coding. I would rather have a feature having 90% of the ideal possible performance and UX, than not having that feature at all. Plus, that 10% is still doable, it just requires a bit of testing and asking the AI. The problem is that most of the times that effort is not really worth it, not for me, not for the clients. There are a lot of other low-hanging fruits that must be addressed, and that's how software development always worked. Now I am happy that I can actually do nice things that before I would have never spent the time on, like making sure a specific settings menu has better UX on mobile (before I would have probably just made an element smaller to fit mobile, for ok usability, but now I can tell it to design an entire new UI tailored to mobile for that specific feature).
It is definitely addictive, as it comes with instant gratification, as opposed to slowly coding and spending hours before you see any results.
I agree with your linked post, and that is sort-of a big issue (even though, most of the times, those guards are not there for the functionality itself, but for the AI, so that in case things break, it gets a more clear error of what went wrong and it knows how to fix it better). This is my entire system prompt, which I assume fixes some of that defensiveness issue:
# Engineering style
- Prefer simple, readable data flows and strong invariants over layers of defensive checks, fallback branches, assertions, and recovery mechanisms.
- Validate at real trust boundaries, then let well-typed internal code rely on those validated contracts. Fix the source of invalid state instead of spreading null checks and guards through consumers.
- Keep code concise and add useful comments that explain intent, ownership, or non-obvious constraints. Do not add speculative protection, tests, or abstractions without a demonstrated failure mode or requirement.
- Use ASD-STE100 Simplified Technical English when you talk to me or caveman-like concise speech, be really direct
That just doesn’t work with current AI beyond a very small scale. I know. I’m on the team that spends our time fixing the vibe coded messes caused by people who think code doesn’t matter anymore.
I have a practically unlimited AI budget and I use it all day long. We have entire teams of very smart people trying to make it possible for PMs to turn jira tickets into features.
We ain’t there yet.
My strong suspicion is that we won’t get there without something close to AGI. And if we get there, there won’t be any white collar jobs left much less software developer jobs.
If AI can take your raw idea and turn it into code with no input from you, it will be able to generate the ideas too.
> I agree with your linked post, and that is sort-of a big issue
This was last week with frontier models. Practically what it means is that I need to audit the code. Approximate changes don’t work when you move past very small scale projects.
Thanks, only tested in webkit browsers, didn't know people use Firefox on mobile either.
EDIT: I can reproduce the crashes, thanks, will tell the AI to test on Firefox too, testing on Firefox mobile specifically might be trickier to debug actually.
I don't know what it built for you in 5 minutes, probably something that "works".
I have spent two weeks using opus just to write a plan/design for 2FA and iron it out until review (about 7 of them) doesn't flag it with 20+ problems (with security holes of various sizes), for which I had to guide it through to not turn it into a mess and whac-a-mole.
Aside from the fact that the implementation must be secure, you want for example to:
- handle accounts that have lost their second factor in an way appropriate for your business
- decide what to do with accounts who don't configure it. If e.g. you want to send them authentication codes via email or SMS that's another can of worms.
Let alone the simple things such as making sure that your implementation works with the various TOTP apps
Well yeah, and it wasn't, most of the pain was around rate limiting, lockouts and preventing exploits and making it work with this specific codebase.
I agree that with a clean codebase it will be simpler, maybe couple of days, just running code review workflow takes 15-30 minutes and then decisions llm makes for each problem is often not good and lead it into overengineering rabbit hole, which means I have to think about each problem and prevent it from escalating.
But yeah if "look, it sends the code and I can enter it to login" is enough validation then it can be made in 5 minutes, sure.
Any of the latest models can one shot a modern 2FA workflow given the right context in a sane codebase.
The critical part is providing it a way to validate its work end to end. Without that, it's similar to asking a human to implement a feature with pen and paper.
> The critical part is providing it a way to validate its work end to end.
Yes! Part of implementing it "one-shot" is actually a loop of planning, implementing, testing e2e on various devices and various edge-cases. It's not just writing the code, and this is not how "vibe-coding" works nowadays. It's not just writing code anymore, this is why most providers worked on their computer-use support too, not only for doing tasks, but also for being able to check and test the work they do e2e.
If you're not doing anything that matters, 2FA is easy. If you're doing something people actually care about, you're going to have to answer real world questions like "how do we provide support for this", "do we force certain roles to set up 2fa", "what if someone loses their phone", etc
I just asked the model to implement 2FA and it did address all the points you've mentioned.
EDIT: Support was not the case, because the app is self-hosted, but the docs should indeed provide instructions for recovery if both authenticator and recovery codes are lost.
If the problem and implementation is so well defined, and "determnistic", this means that LLMs should also be able to just "write code" from specs, without thinking.
The limiting factor of development (for money) is good ideas, or valuable ideas. If you have 5 features you want, but only time in a month for 2, then that forces you to choose the best 2, which come with the tech debt, support and opportunity cost.
Removing the opportunity cost doesn't eliminate the other two costs of a feature
> The time it takes to push a new feature and test it out is often trivial, maybe a few hours.
As opposed to writing a prompt for 30s, then doing something else for 15m while the AI works on it? :)
> The real challenge is forming the new ideas in the first place and most of those new ideas coming either from using the code as a product [...]
Exactly.
AI is absolutely excellent at rapid prototyping. Prompt -> result -> use the product -> prompt. Repeat until the right design emerges. Once that happens, the code can be cleaned up, or even rewritten from the grounds up, taking into account what was learned.
This actually sums up a lot of what I feel about AI. For everything. For flyers, menus, all the rest of it.
It always only took a few hours. And yeah, whatever, sure it adds up. But now you've got this dogshit looking flyer outside your restaurant, and it would have taken you like 45 minutes to adept a Canva template.
For AI, the skill loss and all the rest of it, the lack of control, the lack of knowledge of the codebase. It doesn't feel like saving the few hours is ever worth it.
“ There were tasks I could have done in 20 minutes easily, that took 5 minutes of an AI agent, and then 2 days for me to review.”
This is using AI for productivity in any domain, in a nutshell. I just wrote a book using Claude as an experiment, and while the thing got done and it was an amazing tool and a great experience, what I’m left with is a book where every line needs rewriting, there are logical inconsistencies throughout, and the style is so bad it should actually just be binned rather than rewritten.
> I just wrote a book using Claude as an experiment, and while the thing got done and it was an amazing tool and a great experience, what I’m left with is a book where every line needs rewriting, there are logical inconsistencies throughout, and the style is so bad it should actually just be binned rather than rewritten.
How was this a great experience if what was produced needed such extensive changes that your own assessment is that it should be thrown out? At what point is the necessary rework so much that the thing being reworked didn't really contribute much to the end product at all?
It was really interesting in having an assistant who was completely on the ball and up to speed, never forgot, could pick up from where we left off days ago, could produce and summarise arguments… but the issue was that the amazing assistant could only really work one chapter at a time even with a plan, and changing one chapter would often break things said in other chapters, and their style of writing was such that the resorted to cliches, bad metaphors, and generally bad or repetitive prose. So the grammar was fine, the style was bad to the point where the whole work would not be something I could have my name on or near. I really could come back to it, just having to retype everything in markdown made me see that the project had legs and the topic is sufficient for a book length treatment, but even with the help of Claude I have a few months work to do to get it done and out there. Just it’s a different few months work to the work I would have had without Claude. I could also have attempted to pay Claude thousands of dollars to see if it worked better, but the book is not likely to recoup what that would cost.
That's not surprising, I've used LLMs to write several chapters of a book and it's many times more difficult than getting them to write working code. It's not a task that they're well optimized for but the biggest hindrance is that there are practically no tools that allow you to validate prose especially at the lengths required for a book.
Getting a good writing style out of them requires careful prompting and many corrections, their default writing style(s) are so highly reinforced by training that they will always tend to drift back to them. Maintaining continuity requires you to create a lot of documentation outside of the text itself. It's a much more manual process than working on a codebase where you've set up a lot of automation and tooling that allows them to check their own work.
Edit: it's also worth noting that many LLMs have gotten much worse at writing prose as they have gotten better at writing code.
This is the way. Basically, what determines when to use AI or not is what you enjoy about the creative process. Do you only care about the result, use AI, and then spend hours (or days) fixing errors, tweaking, rewriting, using other AI:s to validate and improve the first AI etc. You get the result, and your activity consist of arguing with AI:s.
If you enjoy the craft and the creative process of actually coming up with new thoughts, instead of relying on the probabilistic combinations of thoughts of others, then you can just as well do it yourself and have full control of the process.
I use AI for low value work with dead lines, where the customers don't really care about the result either. For the golden services and customer engagements were I can tell the customer cares deeply, I use little to no AI, and then get a deep sense of fulfillment due to a job well done.
I don’t see how that’s possible. When I am doing a comprehensive code review with rigorous functional testing of another developer’s work, it usually takes me around half as long to review as the developer took to write it. That includes the back and forth of MR issues and fixes. If AI writes it why would it take 100x longer to review than write it? At worst case it’s just a draft of something I can develop myself, so it shouldn’t take longer than 20 minutes. At best case it is a code review exercise so it takes me half as long.
AI can produce for you an amazing jpeg of an oil painting you’ve ideated together. You could print it out on a large format printer but you’re still only holding a printout of an AI oil painting. To actually make a piece of art that’s worth being on a wall and standing as an artwork, then you still have to paint the painting using oil paint.
Maybe robot arms can solve this last part one day.
I’m not an artist I’m a software developer, so the tools I use don’t matter, the outcomes do. If I am completing my tickets and the code is high quality and well designed then I am doing my job.
Depends on how the AI is used. If used intelligently, for short, readable code snippets, reviewing and understand is easy.
If used naively, where AI spits out 1000s of lines of code, that is far from perfect, written in a style that might not be what you are used to, it can take longer to parse, than if your colleague of 2 years wrote it.
I noticed lately that recent LLMs write very short sentences, sprinkling so many periods over one paragraph. I'm pretty sure that this is some new regression that we're having with new models.
Hmmm I was using Claude Opus for the most part. I didn’t notice any particular shortness in the length of the sentences, but that’s also an issue in itself – the whole thing is just average fine-ness: the sentences are fine, the paragraphs are fine, everything is generic and inoffensive and fine. But at the same time it was giving huge amounts of pushback when I was getting it to interrogate logical faults of certain domains, to the point where I was having to argue with and even convince an AI using data and even its own analysis that there was cause to talk about certain things from a certain angle (can appreciate I’m being vague about which things). It can’t write complex, deeply-claused sentences (or won’t). And it also wants to write snappy little concluding sentences that make a fairly well-argued piece of sociological analysis read like Sex and the City or something.
And just like that, the book got abandoned.
N.b. some of its analysis and laying out of faults in arguments was actually pellucid and brilliant, it can’t be denied. Just it comes with prose that can’t really be used for anything. And even on another occasion when I got it to help me redraft and extend a different book of mine, then it randomly and consistently started stripping out all the stylistic flourishes out of my sentences, to the point where it couldn’t notice that word choices were very deliberate and actually set up little punchlines and logical payoffs paragraphs or chapters hence. And even when I explained and showed it what it was doing, it was like “ahh that’s so clever and brilliant” but just continued to do the same thing.
That's a side effect of people bashing the em-dash and the labs rushing to correct. The period is the most common replacement (along with some minor tweaks to sentence structure), so now that models are being RL'd away from the em-dash the models are overusing a new construction.
That's stupid. People didn't bash the em dash because it was an em dash. They bashed it because it made it obvious it was AI. If your product is so good why are your customers ashamed of using it?
Honest take: people aren't ashamed of using AI, they're trying to avoid being cancelled by rabidly anti-AI ideologues who would hate AI output even if it was the best thing they'd ever seen.
It’s not that it’s intractable, and I genuinely enjoyed the process working with Claude. But responding to the initial post – using Claude I managed to do three months work in about two weeks, but at the end of that I then realised I probably had three months of improvements and rewrites and corrections left to go if it was going to be to be a book worth anyone else reading.
So 3.5 months estimated total. That actually makes sense.
I think this is a common experience, no matter what field or era you're in. Once you start applying QA to some promising new process or technology for the first time, the whole cycle slows right down.
But that's actually the point where things get interesting, and innovators get to roll up their sleeves. I wouldn't give up!
Playing an instrument vs electronic/computer music.
We do forget skills we don't practice, especially fine motor skills (like playing the guitar or typing code).
There's inherent pleasure in playing a musical instrument - practicing improves fine motor skills and produces satisfaction.
You can play for yourself and that can be a great experience.
Often people create music for other listeners - and now the satisfaction comes not just from your skill, but from how the music impacts your listeners.
They say you can put more of your 'soul' into music made with an instrument, but I'd say there's quite a bit of electronic music with just as much soul.
People who create electronic music don't generate any of those sounds with their fine motor skills, but they do have a plan about how the song progresses and what emotional state it elicits in users.
That's why you have DJs which are more popular than others.
If you stop playing the guitar for a year, then pick it up and try playing something, you will feel very rusty. But give it a week of practice and most of your skill comes back.. and in 1 month you're back to your peak skill.
I guess my point is - If you go full on agentic, you'll loose some of your coding skill, but you can get it back fairly quickly if you go back to manual coding. On the flip side, you get better at using AI if you use it, so your thinking is at a higher level, but you give up understanding the low level details of how exactly the code works.
Either way you're making 'music', albeit a different kind of music.
Engineering is not music though. If you're building a skyscraper, and your tower crane breaks, you could go old-school like they did with the pyramids in ancient Egypt. But why would you?
Now, manual labor does have its place as a form of art--take high-precision hand-built timepieces for example.
Ha, I could talk about this framing for days as I think about it a lot.
To add some points on he other side of this analogy:
There is not a lot of purely electronic music that has stood the test of time, at least not when it comes to popularity or, more relevant to the metaphor, profitability. There is usually at very least a human voice in the (literal) mix, but more often than not there are also traditional instruments mixed in.
Take this next point as you will as I am being a bit tongue-in-cheek: While making music-making more accessible to more people is totally great, if I could go a week without hearing a variation of the phrase "Check out my dark ambient drone project!" I would feel oddly accomplished.
Most importantly, though:
> But give it a week of practice and most of your skill comes back.. and in 1 month you're back to your peak skill.
This is only true if you had the skill to begin with. For many electronic musicians, by which I mean junior developers, this is not the case. Does it matter? As a 45-year-old traditional musician... er, I mean hand-coder... I think so, but also ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I also had similar feelings recently. I think the article is good and captures many of the issues I have with the current state of AI development, but I feel like the conclusion/reaction is somewhat exaggerated.
Of course if someone wants to stop using AI completely that's a completely valid decision[0], but I somewhat feel like AI is just a tool that can be easily misused.
I constantly have to review giant PRs and I noticed that I'm handwaving them more and more often. We went from almost no commit messages to walls of text that no one reads. We're starting to become bottlenecked on reviews because code is coming out too fast.
But at the same time, these are mostly issues stemming from a lack of understanding of why some of the standards/processes existed in the first place. If a developer thinks the commits have to be written just to tick a checkbox, they won't care about making them readable.
And at the same time, I'm getting a lot of value from AI, in tasks that do not necessarily have such adverse effects:
- I can create quick tools to test something, or parse/process some data. In these instances code quality is not important and I don't really want to spend hours on developing it myself (just to feel accomplished?)
- I can research issues in our codebase by just providing a log file. It's not always gonna be accurate or correct but it often gives me a very good starting point, almost always quicker than I could've done it myself
- While I do not use AI to completely generate ticket descriptions, asking it to generate me a body containing the relevant code snippets and references allows me to focus on verifying that what I'm writing is correct and understandable.
Etc etc.
So I don't know if it's just the nature of my work, the fact that I have a different skillset, or different priorities. But it somehow feels weird to me wanting to completely abandon AI just because in some cases it can lead to frustrating consequences.
[0]: I too just started a new project where I'm forcing myself to use absolutely no AI!
Implementation reviews are not useful anymore. CRs should be replaced with design reviews where reviewers validate the sanity of the specs and the coverage of the tests
One very unfortunate curse we are stuck with is LLM providers pulling the rug from under us and swapping models with quantized versions during peak demand or on monthly plans. You never know if that's the reason AI starts writing shitty code or it's just the context size that has grown. On top of that there is the queuing mechanism which makes tasks take longer. Sometimes AI is super fast and sometimes a simple task takes 10, 15 or even 20 minutes of "thinking". You may not realize this if you are just using your same subscription but if you switch between providers you can immediately tell. I advise everyone to invest $5 in openrouter, deepseek and qwencode. Just do an experiment and use same model (deepseek-4.1 flash) asking same prompt on same code, then look at the result. Spoiler: you will see trash coming out of openrouter at 1-5 tokens/second, you will see slightly faster and better quality output from qwencloud and when you get to deepseek API where you are paying per token you will not believe this is the same model. Because it isn't.
I don’t mean to advertise OpenAI - let’s make it clear, fuck OpenAI - but I’ve never seen a degradation like that in Codex. All models have always seemed completely stable over their release lifetime. Meanwhile, I rolled back my attempts at using open weight models because providers start throwing “too many requests” errors after just a few requests and the pricing is roughly 10x worse for same model quality, except the inference is much slower. Getting your weights silently downgraded sounds like fun.
OpenAI does the same, the day Astra released I asked it to make a game, it made a really detailed beautiful blender model and some gameplay elements.
A week later, same prompt, really low poly blender model. Either they reduced token usage per person, or they quantized the model, idk, but it really doesn’t work as good as day of release anymore
I keep hearing these anecdotes, but never see it in practice, nor in benchmarks. Do you think it's possible that there exists someone who asked Astra to make a game and they got an ugly one on day 1 and a nicer one later? And don't you think blender modeling is a bit of a "svg of a pelican" problem? It's not what the type of task the model is trained to be doing, and I wouldn't really expect the results to be particularly good or reproducible.
The biggest problem with AI isn't being able to do things. You can do them. The question is "should you?" I had a peer dev this week put in a commit that was 1.2mb (this despite an AGENTS.md saying not to do exactly this) of plan documents and ~20 lines of code. The conversation on the PR review was probably one of the best learning experiences for both of us. It was all about the ramifications of a book's worth of AI pontificating about what it would do and what succeeded and what failed. And we were able to validate that that plan document had huge side effects as we prompted with it in the repo. As we read the document we realized that it was just 1.2MB of smart sounding gibberish and maybe two bullet points of signal.
I really, really wish that posts like this would give _specific examples_ of generated code they thought was sub par and what they did to remedy it. It’s not that I don’t believe that they found the output lacking in some way, it’s more that I read the post thinking, “I feel like Claude et al are way better programmers than me but this person is saying they’re more skilled, I’d love to see what their specific issues with generated code were and how they fixed them”. I mean, even one or two short examples would be amazing; without them I just come away with so many questions.
You can almost immediately smell the stink of Claude on a codebase. Maybe there’s nothing “wrong” with the code (it must work, right?) but it’s somehow incredibly off putting.
What interests me is what the “stink” looks like and feels like to you and why you find it so off putting. Let’s get into the weeds. I realise I sound like a therapist.
I’ll be honest, I can’t really quantify it. But the immediate stink is the nonsensical documentation and code comments it spits out. They’re completely unintelligible. I think when I see those I’m predisposed to think everything else going to be equally low quality. I usually just bounce, but when I don’t I just have a really hard time understanding wtf is going on with the code.
- I started programming games in z80 back in 1983. I've had several periods of 1-2 years in my professional career where I have not programmed anything; at best I've still guided others (as lead or producer) and at worst nothing at all, not even looked at code (as director).
It all came back every time I went back to the trenches. The question in my mind is, what do "AI-native" engineers have that they can come back to?
- During these decades, I have relinquished control several times in favor of productivity. From knowing exactly where every byte is placed in RAM and where each cycle goes, to only knowing that for the inner loops, to just knowing the machine code that the C compiler will generate, to dynamic memory and classes and indirections and cache misses, to wasteful but oh so very expressive javascript and python. I stopped writing my own engines and used Unity, Unreal Engine, Phaser, Godot...
Relinquishing control is easy if you are still truly in control of the new layer, and know where the pitfalls are. Where are new engineers going to gain that expertise?
- Regarding addiction, I've also quit smoking. After 25 years of daily cigarettes, one day 16 years ago I just stopped and never touched another one.
I won't pretend that applies to everyone, or even that I'm impervious to other addictions just because that one was so easy to shed. But harder or easier, everyone can stop problematic habits if they are clearly problematic.
- I don't know where we're going with all this AI. I would prefer it had not happened the way it is happening (IP theft, job destruction, race to the bottom, power concentration, etc). I love progress but I don't think the most important aspect of progress is how fast it happens. Speed only helps the greedy and the terminally ill.
But I'm not going to pretend it hasn't, or risk whatever is left of my professional future boycotting it in favor of a different reality, or (who knows) reject a medical treatment just because it was proposed by Opus 7. The world will live or die regardless what I do, but MY world relies on me.
I will continue trying to have enough expertise, passion and attention to detail in what I do and how I do it, that whatever level of control I have over it is as optimal as I can. From typing z80 bytes, to asking Claude to change a 5 for a 6, the above traits are what has always mattered in my experience.
It’s not just coding that’s affected by the skill degradation issue. As a sysadmin and jack of all trades IT engineer over reliance on AI has unsurprisingly led to a serious knowledge dip.
I see great engineers troubleshoot everything by pasting logs into the prompt and blindly accepting the answer. Zero added value while they ctrl-c ctrl-v themselves out of a job.
My workflow leans on AI for some tasks: review what I wrote, drop me a one-off script (this one is the generative exception), and so on.Or even initial scaffolding.
For the rest I do not. I do not place AI-generated code anywhere.
You lose all control AND UNDERSTANDING.
When things go wrong it gets very messy.
I will keep doing this, I think it works well, I emjoy programming and I think it is productive.
For testimg I tend to write randomized testing, which takes a bit of design but oncr you have it, well, it os test-generatove and increases the quality of checks.
I think that comparing AI to cocaine is a really good analogy. It gives you that feeling that you are amazing and can do anything, but it's just a feeling, in the end you are just high and sooner or later will have to come back to reality and face a bad implementation or a hangover
I'd compare it to bath salts (as in α-pvp). I have an unforgettable experience seeing a substance abusive acquaintance of mine feverishly trying to reverse engineer a Doppler radar's output, he was just trying to read raw hex stream of data and find patterns in it.
"See?? Here's that DEAD BEEF CAFFEE again! Look! Again! The FECE FACCA AFFEC7!! I'm so close to crackin' it! Aha.. Aha.. ABEBE23.. BECACA17.. 1337C0C.. It all clicks in place, don't you see? I'm totally getting it!"
He was all bubbling like this throughout the whole night until his brain just issued a shutdown to let the body rest a bit. That was truly a horrible sight.
I remember him every time I see instances of AI psychosis around.
Why don’t you start a company where AI is banned. Surely it will do much better. In fact, you should also believe that most companies will bad AI for the same reason.
Smh new conspiracy theories every day. “Ai is actually a drug and you only feel that it helps you but it doesn’t”
I don't use AI and the company I work for is doing just fine. Why don't you take a daily dose of Ketamine, that may give you interesting ideas like it does for Silicon valley "entrepreneurs". Don't you want to be the next Peter Thiel or Elon Musk?
I would take ketamine if it helps me perform better without adverse side effects.
You’d rather paint AI as if it were a hard drug to cope with the world changing around you. I mean listen to yourself. Im not the one making conspiracy theories.
So you would take drugs if they didn't have adverse effects, but you don't want to see the adverse effects of AI. And I'm not talking about addiction, I'm talking about building over-engineered crap and spending money doing so
For most folks here basic smartphone with tiktok is cocaine. No basic discipline and self-control. Plus they believe everything "expert ai" tells them, no critical thinking, independent verification...
Where I find LLMs most useful is maybe not even writing code (though helps with boilerplate and test cases, mechanical refactoring, translation from one form into another, rebases and conflicts), but debugging weird production issues, where I have to pull data from multiple places (with often horrible UX) and correlate the data and logs and code. Just need to be careful to follow its reasoning as it can easily go down the wrong route if it misses some important part of the contex, but an SME in the area spots that and directs the agent accordingly. This cut down time for investigations quite a bit.
The point about multitasking getting out of control very much hits home for me. This summer my team tried going hard for agentic coding. Within a month we had 6 people each juggling at least two projects at a time, all the time.
Soon we rediscovered Little’s Law. WIP was piling up and we were getting overwhelmed at the integration phase, and realized that we had got really good at starting projects but actually finishing them was a struggle. Tickets were moving fine, of course. Our rate of generating code and committing PRs was through the roof. But getting actual projects to a point where the stakeholders and customers were happy with the result was just not happening.
So now we have gone back to strict WIP limits and requiring every non-trivial project to have at least two people collaborating on it. The rate at which we are churning out code has gone back down, along with the token bill, but the logjam is clearing. Better yet, the stakeholders, who never cared about our quantitative velocity metrics in the first place, have eased off on complaining that we aren’t getting anything done.
> you stop questioning, and start accepting as good some code you would have never accepted, just because you cannot tell why it’s bad. You have lost control
I have not lost control.
I my most prolific project I do not review the code, but I QA test extensively.
In other projects at work, I review the code.
I prompt to simplify, I challenge implementation that solves irrelevant edge cases, resulting in much smaller PRs.
In projects where I do not work alone, I still write two line PR descriptions myself.
Dumping paragraphs of AI output into the description of a MR where I ask others to review I consider disrespectful.
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> If you turn off your brain, and relax babysitting AIs, you’re not getting any better. You’re losing value
I'm hardly turning off my brain here.
As the author notes, the context switching and so on takes concentration and effort too.
I can say without doubt that I am more productive than ever.
I am getting better by the month, and I am not currently losing value, until the AI fully replaces both me and the author.
"At some point, I had so many AI agents working, that the focus change was too much for me. There were tasks I could have done in 20 minutes easily, that took 5 minutes of an AI agent, and then 2 days for me to review. Because there were so many other things."
This is a personal time management problem. Not a tool problem.
THere is a lot of temptation to do many things at the same time. For some people this works. For others it doesn't. This is not a tool problem. You simply need to fit the tools in a way that matches your personal workflow.
I can do at most two things at the same time. A friend reads a book when Claude works on a task. We're all different.
"...tasks I could have done in 20 minutes easily, that took 5 minutes of an AI agent, and then 2 days for me to review..."
Yep. Part of the job of a software developer is managing complexity.
It's critical because of its exponential nature: as complexity increases it becomes exponentially more difficult to successfully change, understand, or support the system.
From any given position, AI seems to be the right next single move. When things are simple, it's fast and smooth. When things are complex, sota models can handle it, accounting for the details of dozens or hundreds of things at a time.
The problem is, without strict guidance, it tends to add complexity. If you let it, it builds systems at a rate and in a manner that a human cannot understand it. The best next single move leads to a poor overall position.
Then you have no choice but to keep using AI, and to keep upgrading to the next, more powerful model.
Or retreat.
It's pretty clear to me that, as a whole, we don't know yet how to develop with AI. People are mistaking token output or short-term progress for real progress. They people who are going to be successful with AI-assisted development are going to be the ones who can maintain control of their systems while they do it, and the key skill will be complexity management.
I think there’s a critical difference between AI automation for software development and previous rounds of similar automation, like CNC machines automating manual machining.
The barrier to software development has only ever been computer access and knowledge.
With AI, it’s roughly computer and internet access.
This means we’re getting a lot of people who aren’t good at either software development or AI automation playing with both. It’s the majority of what people seem to talk about.
I don’t think this is bad, but I do think it’s making real progress in AI automated software development on teams which are good at both much less visible.
A conservative team member of mine estimated we’re working at 200x speed these days, compared to 2 years ago. And we still see ways we can improve. A parallel team is only seeing an 1.2x increase, but they are unable to modify their architecture around AI.
Some of this is shifting roles. You can have a mildly technical domain expert vibe code the frontend for a new module. The more AI automation you’ve architected for, the faster they can go and the higher quality the outcome. We’re experimenting with mixing vibe coding with specifying formal requirements to push this further.
This works well. And now you’ve cut dozens of rounds of the PM not knowing the right shape for the new software out of the process. Even if we threw the end code away, this would save us tons of time.
I get the sentiment but really you can't argue you are nearly as productive from a business point of view without LLM agentic assistance. Sure do a hand code Friday to keep skills up similar to how a airplane pilot hand flies in the clouds every now and then to keep up skills, but autopilots most of the time.
> I stopped reading those descriptions, like, I told it what to do, I assume it did what I said. The description is for others.
If you cannot read it as the author, what hope do I have to read and make sense of the wall of text which doesn’t seem to describe what I actually need to start reviewing.
I really really encourage everyone to write their own descriptions for PRs. If you cannot succinctly describe it in a way another human understands then you don’t understand your own change and you should withdraw your request.
I think there might be (dare I say) a middle ground to get the productivity of the llm, esp as we evolve them, while still maintain a global and even fine-grain comprehension of a code base.
It is not a simple change, however, but a fundamental one.
Overall I think we are still living in the past and try to apply ourselves to the future. But if the ai craze is to be taken clear-headedly for what it is, it is a complete break from the von Neumann computer and all its resulting artifacts. So why should we use the same tools?
T2 the war has already happened and Skynet sends the T-100 back in time.
T3 Skynet already exists and is hunting John Connor down
I wanna see the conference room meeting where they decide to push an unfinished, unstoppable technology. I guess T1 is the closest as it happens when Skynet "gains intelligence"
It's time travel, so "already happened" is not well defined.
> I wanna see the conference room meeting where they decide to push an unfinished, unstoppable technology. I guess T1 is the closest as it happens when Skynet "gains intelligence"
This is the mid-point of T3. From the Wikipedia plot summary:
General Brewster is supervising the development of Skynet for Cyber Research Systems (CRS), an autonomous weapons developer. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff pressures him to activate Skynet to stop an anomalous computer virus from invading servers worldwide. Brewster fails to discover that the virus was Skynet becoming sentient. John, Kate, and the Terminator arrive too late to stop him from activating it. The T-X appears, fatally injures Brewster, and controls weaponized CRS T-1 and HK drones to kill other employees.
In T2 "it's people against the machines fighting people who think the machines will be a net positive."
it's people (Sarah and her son John who are against the coming skynet machines) fighting people who think the machines will be a net positive (the scientist making machines) AND
it's people (Sarah and her son John and the scientist they convinced the machines are bad) fighting people who think the machines will be a net positive (the company of the scientist which they break into to destroy)
>I went back to TDD, to my PRs with just 5 files changed. To my 2-line PR descriptions that were straight to the point.
It baffles me that someone who prefers TDD can't just stick to writing the tests and then using them to validate and constrain the AI's output. Only making a small number of changes per PR is easy to enforce as well. The problem here doesn't seem to be using AI, it seems to be a lack of discipline in how you use AI.
>There were tasks I could have done in 20 minutes easily, that took 5 minutes of an AI agent, and then 2 days for me to review.
This shouldn't happen at all if you constrain the problem. I've seen it happen many times when you just YOLO a vague spec and just keep prodding it to continue without paying attention to what is being done. If you have a well defined task that should only take 20 minutes of your time then it should only take 10 minutes to review the small amount of output. If the PR is 1000 lines changed then something went wrong, throw it away and rewrite your specification.
I agree. AI + Discipline is the super power of the next generation of software engineers. Crafting guardrails on one's self, and the AI.
I think OPs point though is that, like addiction, discipline is hard to maintain. Humans are irrational, and sometimes, some people just need to go cold turkey.
I've found it helpful to think of models as precisely what they are: bundles of probabilistic textual associations, convolutions of their training, more search engine than "intelligence".
Just having that mental paradigm will lead to more correct uses, and avoid a lot of the most ones most likely to lead one down the primrose path. This cultural moment of SF AI psychosis will pass, but we'll be stuck with the resulting code for a long time.
Also, +1 to the folks saying that code is a liability. More is almost never better. Aim for succinctness and brevity. That cuts directly against the thrust of LLMs' tendency, but will give you plenty to curate.
It's amazing how split-brained the tech industry can be sometimes.
On the one hand, a majority of developers oppose mass data collection and privacy-invasive technologies like ad tech. Many of those same developers also oppose crypto projects because of their energy consumption and environmental impact.
And yet, those same developers have embraced frontier language models--technologies that have simultaneously scraped vast amounts of the world's data, raise serious privacy concerns, and consume massive amounts of energy.
Only a fool would believe that without actively coding you can produce good designs. If you don't code, your overall software engineering skills are atrophying.
Okay, but why? This seems to be based purely on presumptions and guessing. Every attempt I've seen at actually measuring it has found the opposite. At some point there's a "code quality of the gaps" going on that I think comes down to "code is designed in a high quality way when I've internalized the design, and poorly when I haven't", which creates a self fulfilling prophecy when one thinks reading code written by an LLM is below them.
Ease of implementation is a decent indicator of good design. If you're delegating implementation to a machine that WILL implement whatever you ask it to implement, however badly designed it is, you don't get that signal at all.
"When you take a draft PR written by AI and have to work on it yourself, you realize to what degree you didn’t know what it was doing. You start questioning if you need this and that, and ultimately discard everything and start over."
This means you need more practice to master the tools.
I'm not saying every PR will be perfect but if you get unwanted slop and you care deeply about that then you need to up your prompting game.
Protip: if none of your system can really be released independently, you're working on one system and should have one repo. Then you dont need a third release repo to orchestrate the release dance. You have a typescript/ruby monorepo without issues.
Resistance is futile, you will never code faster than AI, with less bugs, more optimized, with more features, in 200 languages, for a dozen of platforms, desktop, mobile, web, responsive, embedded, a thousand times cheaper than you, in your invisible niche market share (they already found you), not gonna happen, and then you'll cry in a corner that you were laid off, or your business got steamrolled by a new competitor selling slop that nobody understands and nobody will fix either, and you will never accept how people fall for this delusional mania if the beauty of art is in being hand made character by character in a punch card
> It started reminding me of the strategy where Google lowered the quality of the search results, forcing users to search several times, and see several times as many ads. And if that worked for Google, how is it not going to work for AI? Specially in the uncertain financial times the AI companies are going through, do you really think they would not do it? Come on. They will do this and more.
We’re using an online, undeterministic, black-box middleman to generate our code. It’s 100% Trust me bro. No proof, no scrutiny, no guarantees.
I vehemently oppose delegating our brains to the AI. I agree with the article in spirit.
> let me tell you about this experience, and how it was turning me dumber, lazy, and a worse developer.
Though the article discusses from the point of using agents, I digress to the topic of building with AI in general.
My experience has been the exact opposite. A new idea (usually related to correctness or architecture) is discussed first with the LLM where it defaults to average Joe idiotic bullshit pushback.
This frustrates me and I abuse the LLM for being idiotic by explaining the how. This results in a more refined and concrete form of the abstraction leading me to even more insights.
The LLM remains an idiot. But a useful idiot nonetheless.
> But I’m not going to fucking babysit a machine, sorry.
A machine that does not learn from the feedback. The only thing these LLMs know about after the initial training is what makes it into the context. Imagine if someone couldn't learn anything new without someone else explicitly telling it what was important to the task every single time? You wouldn't call them a junior engineer.
> When I was a child, I remember my parents saying be careful with the bad guys who offer candies at the school gate, those are not candies, those are drugs.
I remember my parents saying "be careful with the bad guys who mow your lawn, fix your appliances, and drive all you kids to school. those are not people who are helping your family get things done more efficiently, those are drugs"
seriously what are we doing with this "AI is a drug" metaphor? Drugs aren't reading logs for me and writing unit tests?
> Once you start using AI coding agents, things spiral out of control very quickly.
no? maybe AI is not for you?
> Except you don’t write the code anymore, you just ask AI to do it, and half of the purpose of TDD (not biasing the tests by how you’ve implemented the code) is gone. But you feel you go so fast that you start not caring.
do you use code review tools? Did someone tell you to stop using them? Review your LLM's code, leave comments, tell your LLM to address the comments. Have you ever worked in management /architecture? Tech managers do this all day long before we had LLMs, it's not new. Except your workers are the smartest junior programmers you've ever had (and that is where AI is a problem, for sure - I worry for junior programmers today).
> It would not be so bad if things had stopped there, but that’s not how most human brains work. If you like something and you can have 2x, you’ll have it. I started pasting the whole Jira description of a ticket, and let AI implement it for me. Yay!! So powerful!!
totally! Have you not already implemented 10000 issues on your own and it's not boring yet? time for issue 10001 then? Whatever floats your boat...
> Control is an illusion. Other folks I’ve discussed this with agree that they don’t know 100% of what the code they are pushing to production actually does. I bet we not even 20%. Fucking scary.
sure have you ever accepted PRs from other people? ones that took a lot of work to read and understand? How is that different? except their code would actually break all the time if you didnt read it and now it's your bug to deal with because they're gone.
> Because if it was just about approving PRs that are perfectly written, it would be good. But for each PR I had to look at the code, the tests, the style, give feedback, switch to something else, go back again, push, see if I have any PR comments,
How do you think large projects get built? all by just one person so nobody has to review anyone else's code? (and even if you are - you still should be putting your own code up for review, reviewing it, and giving yourself comments)
> if CI passed, wait, now the linter complains.
why isn't the linting part of your CI ?
> The description is for others. Because there has to be a description, right? AI is so fucking good as sounding professional, that you relax and let it be. It’s not that I actually thought the code was good, but you get convinced over time, you get lazy, you become complacent. You stop questioning, and start accepting as good some code you would have never accepted, just because you cannot tell why it’s bad. You have lost control.
Just seems like a lot of issues here, so sure, dont use AI it's clearly not your thing. i do not let one line of code I dont think is "good" get committed, period
> Most AI developers will deny it, but deep inside, they know it’s true. Just don’t want to face it.
but dont assign my feelings. speak for yourself. I'm doing this shit for 40 years and you might find it gets a little tedious and repetitive after awhile
> Say no to drugs. Kind of a metaphor, but not quite.
it's a 100% totally wrong metaphor and it needs to die
I think the (currently) intangible skill that we need to develop is when and how the LLMs are appropriate to use. I'm not sure that's possible- I agree with the author's drug analogy.
I generally don't use it for code - I've been writing code for 30 years, so I'm pretty quick, and it's more productive when I look at total time for me to just write things myself.
But not always.
For example, I was recently writing some firmware in MicroPython and needed to implement Bluetooth to control the device.
It's been years since I've written python, since before asyncio. I'd never written MicroPython and didn't really know anything about Bluetooth or BLE.
The AI taught me about how to do it, taught me about how asyncio works (I'm deeply familiar with the model, just not in python), taught me what how Bluetooth works, what GATT characteristics are and gave me some example code that I then took and rewrote to fit my architecture.
I tried to do the normal "find a tutorial on the internet thing" first, but it's filled with worthless AI slop, ads and examples that are so trivial they're only clickbait. It's incredibly frustrating.
Meanwhile, the LLM was succinct, helpful and able to iteratively answer each question I had as learned and got deeper into it, with links to source references I could use to verify the information.
So, basically, a better search engine.
I've been writing code professionally since the 90s, and struggled through learning new things more times than I can count. This was by far the best experience I've had. It was where LLMs really shine.
But, that being said, at the end of the day I wrote the actual code myself and structured it to fit in with the rest of the architecture for the firmware.
I understood everything and when I had to pass it off to another engineer, I was able to describe everything, how it works, and why it's structured the way it is.
> Say no to drugs. Kind of a metaphor, but not quite.
I think AI is even worse than drugs. On the one hand, it has some elements of a slot machine (when you have irregular success with the process, it creates a more powerful cycle of dopamine release on success). On the other hand, it makes work easier, and humans are just wired to choose the easier road. It's like walking or driving a car when you have to travel 10 miles each day. I don't see how, on a civilization scale, AI won't transform our civilization for better or worse.
I find it strange to see people writing articles like this as if everyone has used AI for decades. I've programmed for decades. I thought I retired three years ago but got an offer I couldn't refuse. Already there were little things I'd forgotten how to use.
Over the past six months I tried using Claude, chatgpt, Grok and Gemini. At best I got reminders of how things worked. People online say they use them to write their code. The code they supplied to me has NEVER worked or was so convoluted that I threw it away and did it myself.
At most, I use these tools as search engines. Even then some references are poor.
I'm starting to think this is becoming a sad, sad world and AI is just the new TV of the programming world.
> The code they supplied to me has NEVER worked or was so convoluted that I threw it away and did it myself.
For me, it's like reading prose with "Not X, not Y, just Z": it's technically correct, but grates like fingernails on a chalkboard.
I have real trouble sometimes, reading what SOTA (Fable, etc) generate - no isolation or partitioning at all.
The worst was the planning an AI does. When I plan something, it'll be split according to data structures "An object to hold this, an intermediary for the obejct to talk to ORM, a serialiser for it that does this", etc.
The "plans" from SOTA are sometimes just hilarious. It'll go "phase one, implement these user-facing features. Phase two, implement those user-facing features", etc.
That's not a plan, it's an aspiration! A roadmap maybe. A plan, in my way of working, is a blueprint of where all the data goes, with algorithms connecting them. With AI, the data is incidental, the algorithms are incidental, only the goal (in the form of tests) remain. It'll work out some spur-of-the-moment idea around data at the time of writing.
So yeah, I do what you do and throw their stuff away. Currently having more success laying down a skeleton manually and then asking them to add a single feature at a time.
That's with SOTA models as of September-26-2026.
I think part of the problem -- answering all of why people are somehow OK with this, and even why the AI does this in the first place -- is that the majority of software developers never got to the point of understanding any of this: the lack of understanding how to carefully structure data surrounds a question they don't even know how to pose, much less answer, and so "write some tests then incrementally try to make them work without breaking any of the existing tests" is the only way they know how to develop at all. In the end, that means that, with the current state of the art (which might change, of course... potentially quickly), your strategy of treating the AI as a junior engineer who fundamentally isn't ready to do your senior-level architecture job makes a lot of sense.
Just reading this there appears to be 2 problems.
1) The size of task the AI has been given to do appears to be too big, which is why it looks like a roadmap/aspiration. You can ask it to implement a single feature or even a single part of a feature. Just keep cutting the size of the tasks until you become comfortable with it.
2) You like plans in a particular way following data structures/data etc. have you actually told the models this. It doesn't magically know. For the record the fact that the models focus on the end behaviour covered with tests is the way to to it imo. The actual implementation is less important and can be refactored as you wish fairly easily with the AI with the tests ensuring the feature still works.
I do agree though that the current SOTA models are very keen to just implement absolutely everything straight away without explaining/exploring properly. You can customise it fairly easily by using the various skills/agent/claude files to remember your preferred workflow, imo the agents adhere to theses better than they used to even just a few months ago.
With Claude and Codex, you can specify exactly how you want the plan and code to be researched and written. That goes into your rules file. (Claude.md etc). Also, make them read the existing code so they can follow the patterns.
i'm using LLMs/GenAI to do one thing: write unit tests.
since i really don't follow the idea of "writing unit tests first", i implement the feature, test as a user, and then use LLMLs to write the basic unit test. then, i will write more tests to make sure i'm covering everything.
feels like an ok-ish compromise because LLMs can do some ok job with defensive code, while i maintain the main implementation and more advanced test scenarios.
My experience was similar to yours, upon till earlier this year. Now the code which comes out of Claude code is acceptable most of the time.
It usually takes me two or three iterations to get there though. Discussing design and principles before writing the bulk of the code is a must. And then a pass or two of review to weed out ugliness.
Still saves time compared to writing the code by hand. Especially for tricky things, where type checking and tests can verify correctness.
>It usually takes me two or three iterations to get there though.
That's the whole problem with AI imo and I think the slot machine analogy is mostly right. It's just not predictable whatsoever and then you won't even be able to review all of the thousands of lines of code that you generate. You never know what you get and this has some serious safety implications that are not acceptable. Yes, it's fine as chat to just generate some snippets here and there that can be easily reviewed. Agentic coding is horrible imo.
> It usually takes me two or three iterations to get there though. Discussing design and principles before writing the bulk of the code is a must. And then a pass or two of review to weed out ugliness.
Am I crazy, or hasn't it been this good for a very long time? The ability to get code out of it after correcting it, correcting it, specifying and respecifying, instrumenting and reinstrumenting, reviewing and demanding refactoring, "no not like that", etc. has been there (for me) nearly from the start. They're great when you're working on something you're not an expert at, and fine if you're working on something that you are pretty good at (if you like to have a cheerleader that sometimes trips and falls on her face.)
My problem is that they don't understand some things that are very clear, and after you've corrected them to get them on track, you're exhausted. You put all of those corrections into a file for them so that when they make the same mistake in the next session you won't have to wrack your brain correcting them, then they a) ignore the file, or b) make a bunch of spurious objections because they were all ready to object and the saved response killed all of the content of those objections. They still seem remarkably dumb.
>>after you've corrected them to get them on track
They all still insist on serving bash code for FreeBSD where bash is not native. I've had to correct them all this whole year and they apologize profusely but, the next time, still use bash.
Note: you can install and run bash on FreeBSD. It's just not in the base installation or usage and I do not use it there.
I've explained to Claude Opus and Fable how rg is recursive by default so they shouldn't run it with -r. It's in my CLAUDE.md file. It's in a memory too. And still the newest versions of those models make the mistake several times per week.
The phrasing makes it sound like you are using them through a chat interface. Have you tried something like Claude Code? The real value only starts materialising once it has sufficient access to your environment.
I find LLMs are a hit&miss. Can be great at rewriting a function from lang A to lang B. Fails completely at a refactor. Great at coming up with a bunch of networking hosts/IPs to test a particular func. Fails when doing simple validation. Great for prototyping an alternative UI but not even remotely production ready. Always confident regardless of whether the result is correct or false. Run it three times with same query get 3 different results etc. Plenty of claims online how people have become a 1000x developer but 0 actual examples of working code in production. Given they're stochastic by design all of this makes sense in a way.
There's no clear path moving forward. Overreliance on LLMs means your knowledge will exponentially decay and you will absolutely crash any future tech interviews becoming unemployable. Not using it for some quick wins feels wasteful. Finding balance between the two extremes in addition to all existing software development woes is really hard.
You would probably be surprised by how many jobs require that you use AI - I even had an interview where it was strongly encouraged to use it during the technical phase. I guess what I’m getting at is, for many people this isn’t really a choice.
Did you set up context? Did you run it in existing code base? Do you have linters, unit tests?
I have JIRA mcp wired up I tell agent to pick up the ticket it makes a feature. I review PR deploy to test server click happy flow through.
It works for me and company I work for. There is a world of difference between using Claude Code, Cursor configured properly and just using copy paste code with chat interface.
I am always baffled by how people take their experience as „this is ultimate truth”.
>I am always baffled by how people take their experience as „this is ultimate truth”.
People are just recounting their experiences. It’s true my first experiences were all terrible with AI, I’m still just getting to a workable experience. It’s better when it can iterate a bit, that hides the fact that the first pass might have hallucinated junk that is smoothed over in subsequent passes.
As a follow up I also tried running AI on a bastard child project - it took all the bad practices that were there.
When used in projects with good practices it was writing good code.
> Over the past six months I tried using Claude, chatgpt, Grok and Gemini. At best I got reminders of how things worked. People online say they use them to write their code. The code they supplied to me has NEVER worked or was so convoluted that I threw it away and did it myself.
I've been finding AI either works great for people or is just awful, and I'm having a hard time pinpointing where the problem is. I don't think there's a big intelligence gap between us, so it's not like others wouldn't be noticing the things you're claiming when using AI. I genuinely believe your experience has been bad, but the part I'm trying to figure out is why it's been bad.
So my questions are: have you given things a fair shot? Have you tried turning things on its side to see if approaching AI usage a different way results in significantly better and more useful results? Do you actually put thought into what you're writing in your prompts (i.e., if I took your prompt and gave it to a junior dev, would they know what to do)? Are you just using the free models available online or do you have a dedicated integration into your development environment through Github Copilot or other vendor(s)?
I mean what I'm about to say with zero offense, but this honestly reminds me of how the elderly generation says, "technology doesn't work for me because it's always broken", and when you go and try to coach them on how to use the technology that's problematic for them, it's as if you're casting black magic.
I don't think AI is the second coming of Christ or that we're anywhere near AGI, but I do believe it's an extremely useful tool that people should be using.
> So my questions are: have you given things a fair shot? Have you tried turning things on its side to see if approaching AI usage a different way results in significantly better and more useful results? Do you actually put thought into what you're writing in your prompts (i.e., if I took your prompt and gave it to a junior dev, would they know what to do)? Are you just using the free models available online or do you have a dedicated integration into your development environment through Github Copilot or other vendor(s)?
That any of this would be needed is a problem on the AI side, not the user side. It can't be expected that everyone puts in hours of upfront work, trying out models and different ways of working just to see if AI is there yet for them, every time a new SOTA model comes out. Time is limited.
Also, the more thought, time, and effort needs to be put into prompts, the less useful AI is.
> I took your prompt and gave it to a junior dev, would they know what to do?
While overall I'm getting decent enough results, the AI often makes mistakes that no human would make, like not styling or aligning a new button on a webpage the same as the buttons right next to it. In general, it has major trouble with having a coherent vision of the entire project.
It's also obedient to a fault, never pushes back on anything I suggest. I'm pretty sure if I asked for a low user value feature that nevertheless would have to increase backend complexity 10x, it would go ahead and just code it, no questions asked.
> I don't think AI is the second coming of Christ or that we're anywhere near AGI, but I do believe it's an extremely useful tool that people should be using.
Ah, same. Just remember, we're very early into LLMs, they're still very much a sharp tool for experts, not really safe or convenient to use for everyone (yet?).
> At most, I use these tools as search engines
I mean, that's why it's not writing good code then, since if you're not using it with an actual harness then it can't read your current code and contribute. Also there is a huge gap between models made more than 1 year ago now versus today's models.
Would you mind disclosing what type of software you work on?
My employer pays for Claude, and my approach is to use it as a better Google search. It's often not better.
Just today it made three glaring mistakes in one session:
1. It read a file in the wrong directory, because that file had the same name as the file in the right directory. It apologized when I challenged it, promising me that it would remember to "read import statements" in the future.
2. It miscounted the number of times a function was called in my repo. It said 20, while my built-in IDE search accurately showed 17. Again, it apologized when I corrected it.
3. It referred to a variable by name that does not exist anywhere in my code. It apologized, and said it was referring to a variable used internally by one of the third-party packages installed in my repo.
So many apologies.
It's the little things like this that remind me on a regular basis just how little I can trust artificial "intelligence."
I have had a ton of success in exposing AST-based tools to agents when working in large, old codebases.
Without them, not only do agents get simple things like function call counts wrong, they tend to return different results. I use this as an example when showing people how the tooling works.
Grep is fine for simple use cases. A step up from that is ast-grep and I need to explore this tool more. But I had the most success building a small pipeline that reads the old code base, parses it file by file using tree sitter, and then loads it into a SQLite database for querying. For example, I have it capture construct definitions and usages and represent those as directed edges and nodes in a single table depending on the node type. The agent is instructed on how to query it and perform interesting queries like build call graphs, or determine dependencies between domains (modularity is not great in this codebase) which is helpful for us to extract around capability lines.
I also calculate fitness statistics, and have some code to capture specific details and knowledge about this very old framework that short circuits agent work in the future. We have some “interesting” magical libraries and functions that block static analyzers from going beyond the call site. This is mitigated, and means agents don’t have to “guess”.
Making all of this available to the different team members at my work has been pretty helpful. It’s faster (fewer tool calls), cheaper (fewer tokens), and accurate.
I wish LSP servers would fill that gap, but they tend to work based on a cursor position.
Otherwise, that’s exactly the tool to help those kind of queries IMO
Is your employer forcing you to use Haiku to save on costs?
It's a small tangent but I am constantly taken aback by just how much the discourse here has slid from nerdom to dorkeyness. All the talk here used to be pendantic and technical and overly complex nerd speak, always stuck in the process itself, feeling above being a 'user', etc.
Now everything is just like above, dorkspeak. Where it reminds me so much more of kids arguing in the playground about "who would win in a fight Darth Vader or Batman"; or console-vs-PC debates. Everything is about the genuine complexity of navigating certain products, of being first and foremost a consumer of something and putting all your energy into comparing various things you are free to choose from.
Its not even like its less techincal, or more mean now, or anything like that. It's just very different and I know its been a while but it feels like it happened overnight.
I call it the redditification of HN. The trend has been massively increased with Corona, and now post AI it's essentially the norm.
People can't even discuss about any politics anymore.
Back in Obama's days there were always interesting discussions in the political threads and they were rarely insta flagged. And it was mostly nuances wrt business needs and what that means for our societies. The PRISM news also frequently got heated, and still stayed somewhat technical.
Extremely noticable compared to the platform it is today.
Tbf though, HN always had a few topics it was extremely irrational about.
Eg Apple since the start and Musk post 2012...
> I call it the redditification of HN.
As one of the users that moved to HN when Reddit closed access to third party apps it’s also quite literally this. I apologize for any reduction in quality of discourse I might have caused.
What made you want to move over? Are you just desperate for a venue to talk, desperate enough that if your venue of choice changes its API you'll go to another place with other norms?
>It's a small tangent but I am constantly taken aback
I'm amused by your surprise.
>Its not even like its less techincal
I'd wager that, actually, it is less technical. We constantly see otherwise very techinical people here poking their heads up and admitting that they haven't been writing any code for 6 months or more, and the ones that brag about it are seemingly unaware that they've been reduced to being a technical PM (the ones that contest this probably havent worked with capable technical PMs). No one wants to engage with vibe-coded Show HN entries because the poster may not grasp the implementation. No one appears to be doing (or sharing) anything super novel with all this coding superpower they have suddenly attained so there's nothing technically interesting to talk about. The last time I found an AI application submission interesting was the one where the person was trying to turn their pet's random keyboard typing into a language (if I remember correctly).
If the guidelines banned any AI comments that didn't preface their comment with the model and version of AI they used, their application domain, and the programming language being used I'm sure there would be less contentious dorky debate and more technical/practical discussion.
And since many here don't see the endgame with AI resulting in anything good for their career or society, like the endless remote work debates, they comment because from a strategic point of view they do not want to cede the narrative to the other side on such an important topic. understandably. hence more dorky debates.
> No one wants to engage with vibe-coded Show HN entries because the poster may not grasp the implementation.
> No one appears to be doing (or sharing) anything super novel with all this coding superpower they have suddenly attained so there's nothing technically interesting to talk about.
You don’t see a relation there?
Or maybe not everyone's codebases are another TODO web app.
lol ik right?
i read some of these posts and it feels like the experience with boomers i had to help with their computers at my college job.
they did the least and expected the most.
I am skeptical of letting AI do everything as well but this does seem like your using a less capable model. Fable doesnt really do this. In my experience it does just "get" what to do given a clearly defined and measurable outcome
Are you using the best models? I feel like my experience is completely different. I am an expert in a small part of a huge monolithic codebase that I’ve worked in for years. When customers report issues that would take me days or weeks to debug, AI can figure it out on the first try.
…as far as you know, at the first glance.
Could you work out that it was wrong, given weeks to go and check its work? If so, your trust is misplaced.
You ARE taking days or weeks to go and check, yes?
>You ARE taking days or weeks to go and check, yes?
I've never taken weeks to go and check bugfixes in the before times, I don't see why I'd expect it now. Once we know what the cause of the bug is, validating the fix and writing a test for it is usually trivial.
Yes, but it’s usually only hours to validate. I understand the codebase so I have the intuition to know almost immediately if the theory makes sense. Validating and reproducing the root cause is often an order of magnitude easier than identifying a production-reported issue.
I'm amused at how many hacker news accounts saw this and immediately jumped to the conclusion that you either were using the model wrong or using the wrong model.
ive been regularly seeing this exact reaction online since November 2025, sadly :/
It's just a little baffling to see someone describe a level of performance I haven't experienced since 2025, despite frequently using the tech, as being a frequent concern.
Might be the type of projects you are working on and how much you care about performance and code quality.
Working on more complex, logic heavy projects with strong performance needs I find the models to be useful but certainly not 'one shot' on pretty much anything. And often incredibly frustrating and genuinely bad code that collapses performance and bloats systems - like what a really bad junior might write.
When I'm working on large standard crud web projects with already decent architecture and a good harness and skills, honestly they work pretty well a lot of the times, the code looks good, does what it needs and fits in with the architectural style.
I really think a lot of hn people just write simple repetitive software, and a small portion works on complex, weird, dense, and novel'ish logic projects. The two obviously don't have the same experiences.
To a first approximation, since 2025 was at best a year ago, it's not reasonable to be so surprised that the improvements in that time weren't enough for some use case. There's only so much anything can improve in a year.
> I'm amused at how many hacker news accounts saw this and immediately jumped to the conclusion that you either were using the model wrong or using the wrong model.
Yes, so I'll disclose it: I was using Opus 5.5, on medium effort, in Claude desktop, which has full access to my entire repo.
Now everyone can officially lambast me for "using the model wrong or using the wrong model," exactly as you say. But I find it quite interesting that one of the commenters here assumed I was using Opus 4.6, because these mistakes sound like that old version! I'm using the version released just four freaking days ago!
I expect some commenters will now say, "Oh, you should have been using Fable, you old boomer." To them I say: "Yeah, well my employer doesn't allow me to use Fable." And, in jest: "Now get off my lawn."
it'll never end. in six months time when you say the same thing some accounts will be saying "oh you must still be using fable".
Exactly this. If you were using the exact model today that 6-12 months ago people here were telling you "absolutely does not make this kind of mistake anymore" they'd tell you the same thing again, just replacing $OLDER_MODEL with $NEWER_MODEL. Why did $OLDER_MODEL not make this mistake 6-12 months ago, but it does now? The answer to that question is obvious, but AI-bros cannot understand that.
It's basically impossible at this point to take these people seriously anymore.
If you're tired of shenanigans pulled by these AI companies then you should host your models locally.
My model weights don't change unless I change them.
I still do upfront planning and then do careful review of all AI content. The behavior the parent described above hasn't happened for me since around Opus 4.6.
The most telling one is counting function invocations wrong, because that's simply not how models work anymore. They use terminal commands and Python scripts for research like that (if not an LSP, if one took the time to set up their tools most effectively).
Combined with their attitude, I have little doubt that the parent has disabled tool calls, is working in some janky Harness like chat/Duo/Juno, or is using a severely reduced or outdated model.
What model are you using? The early stopping after hitting a wrong directory instead of continuing on, and the hallucinations suggests you are using a old model.
See my comment here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49858166
Yeah, I have never understood the over reliance on AI. Writing the code is not the challenge. The time it takes to push a new feature and test it out is often trivial, maybe a few hours.
The real challenge is forming the new ideas in the first place and most of those new ideas coming either from using the code as a product or time spent maintaining and refactoring large code.
Anyways, if you want to continue on the path towards regaining control and take it to the next level I wrote something similar here: https://blog.sharefile.systems/be-brave-go-low/
Wriring the code is not the challenge, but it's what was taking up most of the time. Not the typing itself, but also because I had to think of how to implement it.
Now I can just say "add 2FA" and in 5 minutes, while I test something else, it is done.
It also made iterations a lot faster, you can try something out, see how it feels, if it doesn't work, you can just trash all the code and start again.
But you still have to review that 2FA code and that involves thinking through the implementation, right?
No.
Haven't typed a line of code or read any code for over 6 months now.
And I used to love coding and be a competitive programmer, but this is how "coding" goes nowdays.
I have a mental model of what it would do, and how it would work, and I ask questions to confirm things and tell it to watch for specific gotchas. Then simply test the feature myself a bit.
Security-wise, I think the latest cyber models are better than me anyway at finding vulnerabilitates and pentesting such features.
Plus 2FA is a very common pattern, so it likely has in the training dataset many really good implementations.
> Security-wise, I think the latest cyber models are better than me anyway at finding vulnerabilitates and pentesting such features.
I don't doubt that, but they are equally good in making mistakes, over-engineering, or adding things you never asked for. They have all sorts of patterns in their training data from excellent to inadequate and I find them challenging to guide them consistently in one direction. Also with questions and tests, they can add something extra you didnt need and you dont know about, so your scrutinizing questions and test cases could miss that.
At least for myself, I didnt find them reliable enough yet to do what you describe and just not look at the code at all.
As someone who has an ide open with claude/codex running, I can never imagine leaving security up to models.
Models have found vulnerabilities that i wasnt aware of sure, but their fixes to the bugs they found often included "overengineering". In this case by "overengineering" i mean optimizing for passing test cases related to said vulnerability they found. eventually i have to step in to make things coherent and make sure that future agent can look at this part of my code and copy it to not introduce that particular class of vulnerability. Otherwise if i dont do that similar vulnerability and codesmell keep appearing throughtout the codebase.
I have increasingly automated encrypting and rotating secrets and setting permissions on them including better network level practices. Thanks to AI which helped me quickly implement those. So security wise i am better because of AI? But I also attribute it to my know how rather than the AI because I have never seen AI suggest robust but simple security postures.
This app[0] is entirely "vibe-coded", started on bolt.new which was like the OG way to vibe code and slowly improved over 1-2 years using various models.
I have no idea how the code looks like, and barely even tested the app entirely, because it is still not released yet, but I do think a lot about new features, tweaks, improvements, etc. Years of programming and game development did help, but I don't think anymore that code is relevant, as long as it looks ok and feels good.
[0]: https://ultimidi.com
>not released yet
>barely even tested
So the lowest stakes possible and you have absolutely no idea what bugs are waiting.
Sort of, it's more of a heurisric of bugs found so far. There are very rarely any bugs, most of the changes I request are for tweaks/logic changes, not bug fixes. Usually things just work.
Also, I barely tested and kept changing things simply because of this: whatever I ask for, seems to work as expected.
You rarely find bugs if you rarely test the code.
It's a heurisric though.
It's one thing to test once and find 10 bugs, and another to test 10 times and find 1 bug.
> I have no idea how the code looks like, and barely even tested the app entirely, because it is still not released yet
This is worded as if knowing how the code works and testing it is hinged on it being released.
No, it was about testing only. I will only do a full test of the app when it's ready to be released, otherwise it makes no sense, as the app/product/flow still changes a lot. It's like prototyping a game, you try it a few times, see what's fun, what's not, and keep iterating. Only once you think it's good enough, you can start fully testing and polishing it.
Even after release, I don't see reasons to check the code if everything works and people are happy with the app.
Right, I missed that context that this was about your own app still in getting the idea right/prototype phase. I was talking more in general and would be quite concerned if with today's LLMs it was my bank/government backend system, handling my financials and personal data, written without no one ever looking at the code.
You know your app just immediately crashes to a blank screen the minute you enter a name, or finish a lesson right?
Firefox had an unsupported missing WebAudio. It should be fixed now, and I've updated my workflow to also test on Firefox. Let me know if the crash was in a different browser (not Firefox).
Firefox?
It’s equally good at catching mistakes as it is at making them. So you put it in a loop, write code, make mistakes, catch mistakes, write code, make mistakes… etc. Eventually it converges and stabilizes. That process can take weeks. So the question is: when is it worth it versus not?
You are abdicating your responsibility, which is fine for toy apps for yourself, but less fine when people expect that 2fa implementation to protect their accounts.
I think it's the opposite, with the right guideance, testing, frameworks, and using the top models today, implementing something with AI is most of the times better than what most developers would do.
I basically only manually test e2e myself, other tests are automated, code review is automated. I can tell the model to test for me too specific things or to add tests for specific potential issues, performance benchmarks, compared different implementations, etc.
The focus is a lot more around the code than on the code.
2 things.
1. If what you say is working, you have a working software factory that should be capable of matching the output of dozens of engineers.
What very impressive externally verifiable results have you had with this?
2. If you are working in software with plenty of customers, my strong suspicion is that there are people on your team who are looking at the code who furiously trying to reign in your output.
I make my own software, so no team to look over the code or be bothered by it. I don't even know how "vibe-coding" works in a team environment, because for me now it feels like it's "ideas to app" directly, so dumping by brain/ideas directly into a functional product.
I think this one is really cool[0], will be a free piano learning app. I do have other projects, but they are all at around 80% too, because some systems are shared amongst the projects and have to be finalized too (i.e. now I'm implementing my own transactional/marketing email service on top of Amazon SES, I need it before releasing ultimidi so people can register and receive email confirmations).
[0]: https://game.ultimidi.com
That is a cool app. But if you’d said you’d made it by hand in a few months I would have believed you.
If I had a working software factory like you describe, I’d expect you to have hundreds of apps of that level of complexity in a year.
> I don't even know how "vibe-coding" works in a team environment, because for me now it feels like it's "ideas to app" directly, so dumping by brain/ideas directly into a functional product.
But you don’t have any users much less paying users, so you have no idea if this system works when you do.
Thanks!
> I’d expect you to have hundreds of apps of that level of complexity in a year.
I am working at around 7-8 projects at the same time. The limit becomes me having to remember what I was doing for each one. AI can implement things nicely, but it really sucks at deciding which features and having its own ideas about novel game mechanics or UI/UX patterns.
I don't consider it a "software factory", just a more robust way to implement features, and it's still a WIP. One system I implemented locally is called "TaskHub", which receives some implementation or testing details from a SoTA mosel like Astra and implements it locally using Qwen 3.8 27b running on a RTX 3090.
I delegate things like app testing, navigating the app and taking screenshots, analyzing screenshots, etc.
And yes, this specific app doesn't have any users yet, I will launch it next week after I finalize the user authentication, payment flows and mobile apps. I will release it mostly as is, see user response, and then change it accordingly.
>not a factory
> I don't even know how "vibe-coding" works in a team environment, because for me now it feels like it's "ideas to app" directly, so dumping by brain/ideas directly into a functional product.
If you have a system that does “ideas to app directly”, that certainly sounds like what people are talking about when they say software factory. In fact my very large company would probably pay you millions if you could come in and make this work for our applications.
Hmm, my phrasing was ambigous, I didn't mean it's one idea fo one fully functional app.
But more of, one feature idea, that the AI can add to an app.
So it's not prompting "a gamefied piano learning app", but adding a single new feature like "add a minigame, where the user can control a character on the musical staff, [... 20 paraphs later ... ], make a good implementation plan, implement and test the app until everything is production-ready and bug free /goal"
That is a single "idea" that also requires a lot of fine-tuning after, but rarely in terms of code, most of the times it's only in terms of functionality and design choices.
> What very impressive externally verifiable results have you had with this?
I notice this weird hostility whenever the topic of AI coding comes up and it's never made much sense to me. If someone told me about their new method for practicing guitar I'd feel like a real tool if I demanded they prove it for me then and there.
People don't owe you their "very impressive externally verifiable results" - /u/XCSme already posted their app in another comment, it looked fine to me.
You've made your ideological position very clear here, you don't need to keep heaping it on.
More like, if someone told you their workout program that takes 5 minutes a day lets them lift the same weights as an average Olympic weightlifter, you'd ask to see the results.
I don’t care what somebody believes about the pile of code they’ve got sitting on their own computer. The appropriate level of engagement is sort of: well, they don’t owe us any evidence we don’t owe them any credulity, and if we’re all happy to ignore each other that’s fine.
I can see why some folks here want to quibble, though. In other comments in this thread, they’ve compared to code quality favorably to the output of an average developer. That’s slightly insulting to the field in general (although, I guess most programmers have a low opinion of average code quality).
If someone tells us about their new method for practicing guitar, it is very natural and not at all a toolish behaviour to hand them a guitar and say “go on, play us something”.
In fact it’s actually a very socially agreeable action, as it gives them the opportunity to show off their new skills without them looking like they’re bragging.
Now, if you happen to know for a fact that the guy cannot actually play guitar, then you’re just setting him up to embarrass himself, which is maybe an extreme punishment for the relatively minor crime of spouting some bullshit. I could buy that that is hostile, sure.
> with the right guideance, testing, framework
But you didn't write or read any of the tests so how do you know they are accurate?
You don’t, that’s why in agentic world your codebase is only as good as what you can prove. For this reason, you’re going to see more languages evolving feature like capability permission, effect/coeffect types, refinement types, formal verifiers, strict type checkers, static analysis and so forth. Tests are only a small part of the verification. These ideas are old and have sat outside of the mainstream coding world, but the value proposition in the ai age has changed enough their relevance is renewed.
Not arguing for not reading test code. A lot can be achieved by instructing agents to balance out the testing pyramid with the right amount of fast end to end tests, property based tests for the right things, parametrized example based tests. Ensuring the local and CI has the right mix of tests running at right time. On projects where I have less time to review AI generated code I channel my anxiety into setting up guardrails and processes for the agents and then force them to bump up against them. In the end I view it as creating frameworks which allow me to outsource some of my attention to the agents, so that I can claw back some of that time to go set up more guardrails for more agents who are working on something else.
I genuinely believe that the multiple dedicated agents reviewing security will do a better and faster job than me and than 99.99% of people.
You're acting as if code was incredibly secure before LLMs because humans were reviewing it.
I trust a modern model implementing a standard feature like this much more than 99% of the people I've worked with.
People bash LLMs for overengineering but for this it's what you want. Taking extreme edge-cases into account that a human would never bother with and obsessing over security.
That’s not what you want at all.
I mostly vibe coded a queuing system to replace something we’re using at work (last week. Spent about $1500). Then I meticulously went through the code.
It was much harder to review because it was ultra defensive and included guards for tons of edge cases that weren’t possible.
Unnecessary abstractions for possible extension later. Useless indirection. Probably 3x as much code as there would have been if I’d written it by hand.
I didn’t one shot this. I kept a pretty tight leash on the AI. I had probably a dozen markdown files with of plans that I created over hours of back and forth with the AI and reviewed before each implementation round. I had automated reviews and quality gates etc…
What I found in review was that it was full of very subtle bugs that would have bitten hard in prod. Committing offsets asynchronously that would lead to dropped messages. Clock drift bugs that would lead to dropped messages or write amplification storms. Lack of back pressure in some stages of the pipeline that would cause notes to get silently OOM killed. Weird over-insistence on never crashing in most places that would mask systemic errors.
If I’d just shipped it without review, it would have mostly worked. But at the scale it’s going to be used (tens of thousands of messages per second) it would have caused production issues for months while we tracked down each of these issues.
> included guards for tons of edge cases that weren’t possible
It's not possible until it is. This is the justification lazy developers like we all are have been using leading to bugs down the road. This glorification of hand-made code is strange, like we weren't writing dirty code full of shortcuts and hacks all the time.
The number of possible edge cases if you include all possible future changes to code, input, or environment are infinite.
Overly defensive code is harder to read and change for both humans and LLMs.
And many times it makes debugging harder by moving or suppressing failures.
The issue with LLM guarding isn't that it's "excessive" in outputting edge case handling, it's that the result often ends up just suppressing an error that actually indicates there is a bug or that should be handled elsewhere in a different way.
While I've definitely experienced it I don't think this is as much of a problem anymore. It's very easy to add an instruction to projects where you want every error to lead to a top-level throw rather than be handled. I also find that when it does try to mitigate it does so gracefully with a path you would actually make if you had infinite time, but your instinct tells you it's overkill.
> Haven't typed a line of code or read any code for over 6 months now
> I ask questions to confirm things
Oh my.
As someone who reads the code, I can tell you, asking questions to confirm things is inadequate. The models lie to me, daily.
Every day I have two experiences:
1. I’m blown away by what it can do
2. I say, ”wait, you said this, but the code shows that, so you were just going to leave that endpoint without requiring any authentication??” and I get the “you’re absolutely right, that was my mistake, and you’re right to call it out” song and dance. Daily.
It also adds all kinds of bloat to code, tests, and “documentation”. I’d say I spend ~30% of my dev time picking lines of code or documentation and asking, “why does this exist?” and “what would break if we deleted this line?” and then arguing with it and removing things.
Yeah, I agree, they are far from perfect and make a lot of mistakes.
Truth is, modern software was already quite shit and full of bugs. All major apps had bugs, issues, going down, etc, so users did get used to things not working. I honestly beleive AI coding nowadays, for better or worse, does things better than the average developer.
Yes, it is overly defensive and verbose, but the end result is in general ok and fully functional. Yes, it adds 30 tests and "release gates", and they are not even that useful, most of the times they just act as an extra safety mechanism to make parts of the code immutable, so release fails if the model accidentally changed things.
Another issue with looking at code, is that it's very hard to manually change things anyway. I can't just change a variable from 10 to 20, because I don't know where it is used. I have to ask the model to set that value to 20. It is quite stupid and inefficient, but this is one cost of coding using AI. But, if you do this, things will likely work.
That being said, I've mostly used Astra xhigh since it was released and things just work.
> Another issue with looking at code, is that it's very hard to manually change things anyway. I can't just change a variable from 10 to 20, because I don't know where it is used.
This should be a giant flashing red light. If you can't figure this out, either 1) you're too junior to be effective using AI, or 2) the AI is doing a truly awful job organizing the codebase. In either case, it's a sign to slow things down and understand what's happening before proceeding.
No, the problem is not the code.
Is that that variable might be used in tests, UI, docs, agenr markdown files, other related projects too.
The design spec could say "always use 10px margin", then in code we have a const with value 10 used everywhere. If we update 10 manually in code to 20, then the design spec is now outdated.
Current models love shoving in defaults where correct code would otherwise fall over with an exception.
I dread to think what that means in security conscious code.
Hmm, my experience is different. I noticed Astra always asks me to add credentials in a secure way, to never pasted them in chat, to rotate any potentially exposed tokens, etc.
Can you give an example of unsafe defaults used?
Be brave and post a GitHub of your code that you haven't written a lick of and haven't read.
EDIT: Come on? Won't post your code for everyone to see? Why not just put it all in a repo, client and server both?
EDIT 2: Amazing. If you punch in notes on the keyboard for like 10 seconds then click the keyboard-icon button on the bottom right the website crashes
EDIT 3: If you click the main CTA then click "Let's start" the website hangs and you need to manually refresh the page for the content to load
I could probably look over, and get some snippets, but currently only the client-side is live, so the code is sort of there, albeit I assume it's minified for production.
The game seems quite bug free though, including minigames. The UI could be better, but it's not done yet.
I do for example have an automated system that simulates progression, takes screenshots of the game to find potential hidden buttons or overlapping elements, to test for performance, etc.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I honestly don't see why I would review 100k's of lines of code.
EDIT: I might have replied in a wrong thread, but it was about this entirely "vibe-coded" app: https://game.ultimidi.com
That is an untested toy app that has no users.
> why I would review 100k's of lines of code.
If the core or that app is more than a few thousand lines of code, something is seriously wrong.
I don’t want to shit on your app. It’s cool. I’m glad you built it. I’ve vibe coded all kinds of toy apps for myself and my kids.
But it’s not strong evidence that code is irrelevant.
Thanks for your words.
> If the core or that app is more than a few thousand lines of code, something is seriously wrong.
That's the thing about vibe-coding: it is not the core, it is the entire app. We no longer make MVPs and release those, with AI we can make directly the app including all bells and whistles, entire progression, not just one level, all the systems around it.
Why? Because if something needs changing, it's just one prompt away. I do think code is fluid now, any choice of architecture can be instantly changed at basically no cost.
Maybe my mind is just finding ways to cope, thinking that I "wasted" thousands of solving coding challenges and fixing bugs, but I do think, for better or worse, that manually coding is gone. Same as we no longer code in assembly anymore. We no longer write C. We no longer write JavaScript. We no longer write TypeScript. Maybe not today, people don't like change, but manually writing or even viewing code will only be done in a few educational and high-performance/risk cases.
An LLM isn’t a compiler because there’s no formal method for translating prompts to code. It’s chaotic and small changes in prompts will result in vastly different code.
Come back to me when your app has users and adding new features subtly (or not so subtly) breaks every work flow that you haven’t explicitly tested.
You can’t commit the prompt and regenerate the source code each time because the whole reason that an LLM is useful is that it makes thousands of decisions for you. And those decisions are different each time you regenerate.
The only way to enforce that those decisions are the same each time you regenerate is to encode all of them in tests. But at even moderate complexity that leads to an overconstraint problem that will halt development.
We see this when using LLMs on large apps. Anthropic gave up on their C compiler. Even with an unlimited budget they stopped being able to make progress on it.
I see this in some games I made for my 4 year old. I had them one shot some “juice” when he gets an addition problem right. Combination of screen shake, sounds, flashing light, explosions etc…
It looks pretty cool, but when I tried to tweak the animations with prompts it was always worse. I eventually went in and edited the code myself and I could see why it was so hard for the LLM to change anything because it was a horrific mess of interwoven animations.
I was able to pull everything apart and manually adjust what I wanted.
What helps is to ask the model to make design docs and to note down features and how they work in md files. It sort of provides another layer of persistence separate from code.
But yeah, overall you have to be ok with the app being approximate too. Maybe after an update a button is a different size, or in a different place, or it suddenly has an animation to it. Those smaller things are a bit harder to control when making changes at scale, and if not clearly documented.
For me this is not necessarily a big drawback, for things like games, the core game loop, performance and game feel are a lot more important than any small UI tweaks.
Hopefully, the better the models get, those side-effects will only be improvements, not degradations.
> But yeah, overall you have to be ok with the app being approximate too. Maybe after an update a button is a different size, or in a different place, or it suddenly has an animation to it. Those smaller things are a bit harder to control when making changes at scale,
Now come back to me when you have paying users.
Better yet come back when you have paying users who depend on your app to do their job. And in addition to buttons changing location, you are constantly breaking their work flows because they are using the app in ways you didn’t anticipate.
I do have paying users for https://uxwizz.com
I only started using AI for development for this product (13 years developed without AI) a few months ago, and customers are really happy with the changes.
I managed to implement feature requests that were pending for years. It took probably 1 month to implement what would have taken 1 year without AI.
I’m talking about the vibe coded app you showed off earlier. If you’ve got another 15 year old app that is well architected and modular, you could probably get away with purely vibe coded improvements for a while without everything devolving into a tightly couple mess where the AI can’t touch X without changing Y.
>It took probably 1 month to implement what would have taken 1 year without AI.
1. I’m not saying that AI can’t speed you up. I’m only saying that you can’t ignore the code for anything beyond a toy app (at least not sustainably).
2. How much is that is down to motivation though? You’ve been developing something for 15 then years then suddenly there’s a brand new development methodology that is fun to mess around with and addictive.
I wrote about some of the issues I uncovered auditing my own vibe coded project in another thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49856310
> I’m only saying that you can’t ignore the code for anything beyond a toy app
I thought the same, but I do disagree with this now. Future software development will be mostly just creating black boxes and describing what the box should do, without ever caring what is inside the box. For now, we still have to guide the AI and tell what architecture it should likely use, or which libraries should use (just for the sake of performance and ease of development), but in the future this probably won't matter either. I honestly believe code does not matter anymore. What matters is knowing what to test when building an app, how to define performance metrics and knowing what is good/possible when developing an app. I know I won't be able to create a shooting game that supports 1 million CCU on a single vCPU. But I know that the input latency should feel good, and game should run smoothly at start and over time, to tell it to implement tests to check for memory leaks and avoiding JavaScript GC pauses, use object pooling when possible, etc. The complexity moves from telling how/what to code, to knowing exactly to tell it how things should behave and what's a good outcome. If I tell it "make sure bullets are object pooled", it will likely implement it properly, as object pooling is a very common pattern that exists in its training data, and it usually either works or doesn't, when it doesn't work there are obvious issues like objects shown at the wrong positions or not spawning properly, so the issues with the code would be reflected in e2e testing anyway.
2. That was both motivating and demotivating to be honest. The app was my "baby", having spent a lot of time designing everything, optimizing, carefully choosing libraries and make cool implementation decisions. Now I feel like all the newly added features are not really mine, and it doesn't even feel like my product anymore that I can proudly say: "hey, I wrote all the code for this app". It is a really demoralizing feeling, but at the same time, I like how all my ideas can now be materialized. And it actually works. And it works well. I am still getting used to the fact that I won't have full control or understanding of how the code works, and it pains me that this is the case, but there is no way I could achieve better results by manually coding. I would rather have a feature having 90% of the ideal possible performance and UX, than not having that feature at all. Plus, that 10% is still doable, it just requires a bit of testing and asking the AI. The problem is that most of the times that effort is not really worth it, not for me, not for the clients. There are a lot of other low-hanging fruits that must be addressed, and that's how software development always worked. Now I am happy that I can actually do nice things that before I would have never spent the time on, like making sure a specific settings menu has better UX on mobile (before I would have probably just made an element smaller to fit mobile, for ok usability, but now I can tell it to design an entire new UI tailored to mobile for that specific feature).
It is definitely addictive, as it comes with instant gratification, as opposed to slowly coding and spending hours before you see any results.
I agree with your linked post, and that is sort-of a big issue (even though, most of the times, those guards are not there for the functionality itself, but for the AI, so that in case things break, it gets a more clear error of what went wrong and it knows how to fix it better). This is my entire system prompt, which I assume fixes some of that defensiveness issue:
That just doesn’t work with current AI beyond a very small scale. I know. I’m on the team that spends our time fixing the vibe coded messes caused by people who think code doesn’t matter anymore.
I have a practically unlimited AI budget and I use it all day long. We have entire teams of very smart people trying to make it possible for PMs to turn jira tickets into features.
We ain’t there yet.
My strong suspicion is that we won’t get there without something close to AGI. And if we get there, there won’t be any white collar jobs left much less software developer jobs.
If AI can take your raw idea and turn it into code with no input from you, it will be able to generate the ideas too.
> I agree with your linked post, and that is sort-of a big issue
This was last week with frontier models. Practically what it means is that I need to audit the code. Approximate changes don’t work when you move past very small scale projects.
> overall you have to be ok with the app being approximate too
And with epsilon big enough any output it good output...
Interesting, what browser are you using?
Also, what do you mean punch in notes? Like mashing keys and pressing 10 buttons at once?
Never had the app/website crash, tested only on Brave (desktop and mobile) so far.
Firefox Android
Thanks, only tested in webkit browsers, didn't know people use Firefox on mobile either.
EDIT: I can reproduce the crashes, thanks, will tell the AI to test on Firefox too, testing on Firefox mobile specifically might be trickier to debug actually.
I don't know what it built for you in 5 minutes, probably something that "works".
I have spent two weeks using opus just to write a plan/design for 2FA and iron it out until review (about 7 of them) doesn't flag it with 20+ problems (with security holes of various sizes), for which I had to guide it through to not turn it into a mess and whac-a-mole.
2FA is quite simple, right?
It's just a secret key that an autheticator uses to generate a time-based code, which the app can validate before completing a normal log-in flow.
What model did you use?
Astra xhigh on fast mode can probably indeed one-shot that in 5 minutes.
Plus optionally QR image generator to easily add that key to the authenticator app.
There are already many libraries doing 2FA, but implementing it in any language is quite trivial, right
> 2FA is quite simple, right?
No?
Aside from the fact that the implementation must be secure, you want for example to:
- handle accounts that have lost their second factor in an way appropriate for your business - decide what to do with accounts who don't configure it. If e.g. you want to send them authentication codes via email or SMS that's another can of worms.
Let alone the simple things such as making sure that your implementation works with the various TOTP apps
- handle accounts that have lost their second factor in an way appropriate for your business
One-time displayed recovery codes are a standard practice, and most good LLMs will add it by default without even asking for it.
And yeah, I am talking about TOTP apps, I think sms/email is not as secure.
Well yeah, and it wasn't, most of the pain was around rate limiting, lockouts and preventing exploits and making it work with this specific codebase.
I agree that with a clean codebase it will be simpler, maybe couple of days, just running code review workflow takes 15-30 minutes and then decisions llm makes for each problem is often not good and lead it into overengineering rabbit hole, which means I have to think about each problem and prevent it from escalating.
But yeah if "look, it sends the code and I can enter it to login" is enough validation then it can be made in 5 minutes, sure.
Any of the latest models can one shot a modern 2FA workflow given the right context in a sane codebase.
The critical part is providing it a way to validate its work end to end. Without that, it's similar to asking a human to implement a feature with pen and paper.
> The critical part is providing it a way to validate its work end to end.
Yes! Part of implementing it "one-shot" is actually a loop of planning, implementing, testing e2e on various devices and various edge-cases. It's not just writing the code, and this is not how "vibe-coding" works nowadays. It's not just writing code anymore, this is why most providers worked on their computer-use support too, not only for doing tasks, but also for being able to check and test the work they do e2e.
If you're not doing anything that matters, 2FA is easy. If you're doing something people actually care about, you're going to have to answer real world questions like "how do we provide support for this", "do we force certain roles to set up 2fa", "what if someone loses their phone", etc
I just asked the model to implement 2FA and it did address all the points you've mentioned.
EDIT: Support was not the case, because the app is self-hosted, but the docs should indeed provide instructions for recovery if both authenticator and recovery codes are lost.
>Not the typing itself, but also because I had to think of how to implement it.
I believe "writing the code" means literally just "writing the code" not thinking how to implement it.
How can we write without thinking?
If the problem and implementation is so well defined, and "determnistic", this means that LLMs should also be able to just "write code" from specs, without thinking.
The limiting factor of development (for money) is good ideas, or valuable ideas. If you have 5 features you want, but only time in a month for 2, then that forces you to choose the best 2, which come with the tech debt, support and opportunity cost.
Removing the opportunity cost doesn't eliminate the other two costs of a feature
How many lines of code do you write, on a good day?
I'd expect it's in the tens of thousands, given how effortless you find it.
Would that be a good thing?
Code is a liability.
According to GitHub it was about +2114 / -1519 lines of code from 45 files yesterday. I felt productive yesterday.
https://github.com/prettydiff/aphorio/commit/0c730389c9e4e69...
> The time it takes to push a new feature and test it out is often trivial, maybe a few hours.
As opposed to writing a prompt for 30s, then doing something else for 15m while the AI works on it? :)
> The real challenge is forming the new ideas in the first place and most of those new ideas coming either from using the code as a product [...]
Exactly.
AI is absolutely excellent at rapid prototyping. Prompt -> result -> use the product -> prompt. Repeat until the right design emerges. Once that happens, the code can be cleaned up, or even rewritten from the grounds up, taking into account what was learned.
This actually sums up a lot of what I feel about AI. For everything. For flyers, menus, all the rest of it.
It always only took a few hours. And yeah, whatever, sure it adds up. But now you've got this dogshit looking flyer outside your restaurant, and it would have taken you like 45 minutes to adept a Canva template.
For AI, the skill loss and all the rest of it, the lack of control, the lack of knowledge of the codebase. It doesn't feel like saving the few hours is ever worth it.
“ There were tasks I could have done in 20 minutes easily, that took 5 minutes of an AI agent, and then 2 days for me to review.”
This is using AI for productivity in any domain, in a nutshell. I just wrote a book using Claude as an experiment, and while the thing got done and it was an amazing tool and a great experience, what I’m left with is a book where every line needs rewriting, there are logical inconsistencies throughout, and the style is so bad it should actually just be binned rather than rewritten.
> I just wrote a book using Claude as an experiment, and while the thing got done and it was an amazing tool and a great experience, what I’m left with is a book where every line needs rewriting, there are logical inconsistencies throughout, and the style is so bad it should actually just be binned rather than rewritten.
How was this a great experience if what was produced needed such extensive changes that your own assessment is that it should be thrown out? At what point is the necessary rework so much that the thing being reworked didn't really contribute much to the end product at all?
It was really interesting in having an assistant who was completely on the ball and up to speed, never forgot, could pick up from where we left off days ago, could produce and summarise arguments… but the issue was that the amazing assistant could only really work one chapter at a time even with a plan, and changing one chapter would often break things said in other chapters, and their style of writing was such that the resorted to cliches, bad metaphors, and generally bad or repetitive prose. So the grammar was fine, the style was bad to the point where the whole work would not be something I could have my name on or near. I really could come back to it, just having to retype everything in markdown made me see that the project had legs and the topic is sufficient for a book length treatment, but even with the help of Claude I have a few months work to do to get it done and out there. Just it’s a different few months work to the work I would have had without Claude. I could also have attempted to pay Claude thousands of dollars to see if it worked better, but the book is not likely to recoup what that would cost.
That's not surprising, I've used LLMs to write several chapters of a book and it's many times more difficult than getting them to write working code. It's not a task that they're well optimized for but the biggest hindrance is that there are practically no tools that allow you to validate prose especially at the lengths required for a book.
Getting a good writing style out of them requires careful prompting and many corrections, their default writing style(s) are so highly reinforced by training that they will always tend to drift back to them. Maintaining continuity requires you to create a lot of documentation outside of the text itself. It's a much more manual process than working on a codebase where you've set up a lot of automation and tooling that allows them to check their own work.
Edit: it's also worth noting that many LLMs have gotten much worse at writing prose as they have gotten better at writing code.
This is the way. Basically, what determines when to use AI or not is what you enjoy about the creative process. Do you only care about the result, use AI, and then spend hours (or days) fixing errors, tweaking, rewriting, using other AI:s to validate and improve the first AI etc. You get the result, and your activity consist of arguing with AI:s.
If you enjoy the craft and the creative process of actually coming up with new thoughts, instead of relying on the probabilistic combinations of thoughts of others, then you can just as well do it yourself and have full control of the process.
I use AI for low value work with dead lines, where the customers don't really care about the result either. For the golden services and customer engagements were I can tell the customer cares deeply, I use little to no AI, and then get a deep sense of fulfillment due to a job well done.
Sadly, a great deal of applied business programming in modern capitalism doesn't give you the option of enjoying the creative process.
In effect, everything is classified as: "low value work with dead lines, where the customers don't really care about the result either."
So you use AI when it's all right to produce slop. That actually seems reasonable.
I don’t see how that’s possible. When I am doing a comprehensive code review with rigorous functional testing of another developer’s work, it usually takes me around half as long to review as the developer took to write it. That includes the back and forth of MR issues and fixes. If AI writes it why would it take 100x longer to review than write it? At worst case it’s just a draft of something I can develop myself, so it shouldn’t take longer than 20 minutes. At best case it is a code review exercise so it takes me half as long.
AI can produce for you an amazing jpeg of an oil painting you’ve ideated together. You could print it out on a large format printer but you’re still only holding a printout of an AI oil painting. To actually make a piece of art that’s worth being on a wall and standing as an artwork, then you still have to paint the painting using oil paint.
Maybe robot arms can solve this last part one day.
I’m not an artist I’m a software developer, so the tools I use don’t matter, the outcomes do. If I am completing my tickets and the code is high quality and well designed then I am doing my job.
Depends on how the AI is used. If used intelligently, for short, readable code snippets, reviewing and understand is easy.
If used naively, where AI spits out 1000s of lines of code, that is far from perfect, written in a style that might not be what you are used to, it can take longer to parse, than if your colleague of 2 years wrote it.
I noticed lately that recent LLMs write very short sentences, sprinkling so many periods over one paragraph. I'm pretty sure that this is some new regression that we're having with new models.
Have you noticed it, too?
Hmmm I was using Claude Opus for the most part. I didn’t notice any particular shortness in the length of the sentences, but that’s also an issue in itself – the whole thing is just average fine-ness: the sentences are fine, the paragraphs are fine, everything is generic and inoffensive and fine. But at the same time it was giving huge amounts of pushback when I was getting it to interrogate logical faults of certain domains, to the point where I was having to argue with and even convince an AI using data and even its own analysis that there was cause to talk about certain things from a certain angle (can appreciate I’m being vague about which things). It can’t write complex, deeply-claused sentences (or won’t). And it also wants to write snappy little concluding sentences that make a fairly well-argued piece of sociological analysis read like Sex and the City or something.
And just like that, the book got abandoned.
N.b. some of its analysis and laying out of faults in arguments was actually pellucid and brilliant, it can’t be denied. Just it comes with prose that can’t really be used for anything. And even on another occasion when I got it to help me redraft and extend a different book of mine, then it randomly and consistently started stripping out all the stylistic flourishes out of my sentences, to the point where it couldn’t notice that word choices were very deliberate and actually set up little punchlines and logical payoffs paragraphs or chapters hence. And even when I explained and showed it what it was doing, it was like “ahh that’s so clever and brilliant” but just continued to do the same thing.
That's a side effect of people bashing the em-dash and the labs rushing to correct. The period is the most common replacement (along with some minor tweaks to sentence structure), so now that models are being RL'd away from the em-dash the models are overusing a new construction.
That's stupid. People didn't bash the em dash because it was an em dash. They bashed it because it made it obvious it was AI. If your product is so good why are your customers ashamed of using it?
Honest take: people aren't ashamed of using AI, they're trying to avoid being cancelled by rabidly anti-AI ideologues who would hate AI output even if it was the best thing they'd ever seen.
Claude's writing style is grating garbage. Gemini & OAI models are far better at prose.
What made the editing process intractable?
It’s not that it’s intractable, and I genuinely enjoyed the process working with Claude. But responding to the initial post – using Claude I managed to do three months work in about two weeks, but at the end of that I then realised I probably had three months of improvements and rewrites and corrections left to go if it was going to be to be a book worth anyone else reading.
So 3.5 months estimated total. That actually makes sense.
I think this is a common experience, no matter what field or era you're in. Once you start applying QA to some promising new process or technology for the first time, the whole cycle slows right down.
But that's actually the point where things get interesting, and innovators get to roll up their sleeves. I wouldn't give up!
I sometimes look at it via the metaphor of music.
Playing an instrument vs electronic/computer music.
We do forget skills we don't practice, especially fine motor skills (like playing the guitar or typing code).
There's inherent pleasure in playing a musical instrument - practicing improves fine motor skills and produces satisfaction.
You can play for yourself and that can be a great experience.
Often people create music for other listeners - and now the satisfaction comes not just from your skill, but from how the music impacts your listeners.
They say you can put more of your 'soul' into music made with an instrument, but I'd say there's quite a bit of electronic music with just as much soul.
People who create electronic music don't generate any of those sounds with their fine motor skills, but they do have a plan about how the song progresses and what emotional state it elicits in users.
That's why you have DJs which are more popular than others.
If you stop playing the guitar for a year, then pick it up and try playing something, you will feel very rusty. But give it a week of practice and most of your skill comes back.. and in 1 month you're back to your peak skill.
I guess my point is - If you go full on agentic, you'll loose some of your coding skill, but you can get it back fairly quickly if you go back to manual coding. On the flip side, you get better at using AI if you use it, so your thinking is at a higher level, but you give up understanding the low level details of how exactly the code works.
Either way you're making 'music', albeit a different kind of music.
A more apt comparison would be playing guitar vs. prompting an AI to generate a guitar solo.
“I am a guitarist and I am glad I don’t have to do the boring part of playing the guitar any more”
90% of Hacker News posers^Wprogrammers
No way in hell you just said “posers” with a straight-face. My god.
Engineering is not music though. If you're building a skyscraper, and your tower crane breaks, you could go old-school like they did with the pyramids in ancient Egypt. But why would you?
Now, manual labor does have its place as a form of art--take high-precision hand-built timepieces for example.
Yeah, only if you had coding skills in the first place.
Ha, I could talk about this framing for days as I think about it a lot.
To add some points on he other side of this analogy:
There is not a lot of purely electronic music that has stood the test of time, at least not when it comes to popularity or, more relevant to the metaphor, profitability. There is usually at very least a human voice in the (literal) mix, but more often than not there are also traditional instruments mixed in.
Take this next point as you will as I am being a bit tongue-in-cheek: While making music-making more accessible to more people is totally great, if I could go a week without hearing a variation of the phrase "Check out my dark ambient drone project!" I would feel oddly accomplished.
Most importantly, though:
> But give it a week of practice and most of your skill comes back.. and in 1 month you're back to your peak skill.
This is only true if you had the skill to begin with. For many electronic musicians, by which I mean junior developers, this is not the case. Does it matter? As a 45-year-old traditional musician... er, I mean hand-coder... I think so, but also ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yet another nonsensical comparison to attempt to legitimate reckless AI use.
No, playing an instrument VS making electronic music has absolutely no comparison to writing code by hand or with AI.
You're comparing the difference between a motor skill and a knowledge-based competency, with the difference between two knowledge-based competencies.
I also had similar feelings recently. I think the article is good and captures many of the issues I have with the current state of AI development, but I feel like the conclusion/reaction is somewhat exaggerated.
Of course if someone wants to stop using AI completely that's a completely valid decision[0], but I somewhat feel like AI is just a tool that can be easily misused.
I constantly have to review giant PRs and I noticed that I'm handwaving them more and more often. We went from almost no commit messages to walls of text that no one reads. We're starting to become bottlenecked on reviews because code is coming out too fast.
But at the same time, these are mostly issues stemming from a lack of understanding of why some of the standards/processes existed in the first place. If a developer thinks the commits have to be written just to tick a checkbox, they won't care about making them readable.
And at the same time, I'm getting a lot of value from AI, in tasks that do not necessarily have such adverse effects:
- I can create quick tools to test something, or parse/process some data. In these instances code quality is not important and I don't really want to spend hours on developing it myself (just to feel accomplished?)
- I can research issues in our codebase by just providing a log file. It's not always gonna be accurate or correct but it often gives me a very good starting point, almost always quicker than I could've done it myself
- While I do not use AI to completely generate ticket descriptions, asking it to generate me a body containing the relevant code snippets and references allows me to focus on verifying that what I'm writing is correct and understandable.
Etc etc.
So I don't know if it's just the nature of my work, the fact that I have a different skillset, or different priorities. But it somehow feels weird to me wanting to completely abandon AI just because in some cases it can lead to frustrating consequences.
[0]: I too just started a new project where I'm forcing myself to use absolutely no AI!
Implementation reviews are not useful anymore. CRs should be replaced with design reviews where reviewers validate the sanity of the specs and the coverage of the tests
Exactly. I use AI to enhance what I write and to allow me to focus on the core of what I’m doing.
I use it to find reasoning gaps, add examples, add citations etc. The LLM/Agent can find them quicker than I.
One very unfortunate curse we are stuck with is LLM providers pulling the rug from under us and swapping models with quantized versions during peak demand or on monthly plans. You never know if that's the reason AI starts writing shitty code or it's just the context size that has grown. On top of that there is the queuing mechanism which makes tasks take longer. Sometimes AI is super fast and sometimes a simple task takes 10, 15 or even 20 minutes of "thinking". You may not realize this if you are just using your same subscription but if you switch between providers you can immediately tell. I advise everyone to invest $5 in openrouter, deepseek and qwencode. Just do an experiment and use same model (deepseek-4.1 flash) asking same prompt on same code, then look at the result. Spoiler: you will see trash coming out of openrouter at 1-5 tokens/second, you will see slightly faster and better quality output from qwencloud and when you get to deepseek API where you are paying per token you will not believe this is the same model. Because it isn't.
I don’t mean to advertise OpenAI - let’s make it clear, fuck OpenAI - but I’ve never seen a degradation like that in Codex. All models have always seemed completely stable over their release lifetime. Meanwhile, I rolled back my attempts at using open weight models because providers start throwing “too many requests” errors after just a few requests and the pricing is roughly 10x worse for same model quality, except the inference is much slower. Getting your weights silently downgraded sounds like fun.
OpenAI does the same, the day Astra released I asked it to make a game, it made a really detailed beautiful blender model and some gameplay elements.
A week later, same prompt, really low poly blender model. Either they reduced token usage per person, or they quantized the model, idk, but it really doesn’t work as good as day of release anymore
I keep hearing these anecdotes, but never see it in practice, nor in benchmarks. Do you think it's possible that there exists someone who asked Astra to make a game and they got an ugly one on day 1 and a nicer one later? And don't you think blender modeling is a bit of a "svg of a pelican" problem? It's not what the type of task the model is trained to be doing, and I wouldn't really expect the results to be particularly good or reproducible.
New conspiracy theory just dropped.
The biggest problem with AI isn't being able to do things. You can do them. The question is "should you?" I had a peer dev this week put in a commit that was 1.2mb (this despite an AGENTS.md saying not to do exactly this) of plan documents and ~20 lines of code. The conversation on the PR review was probably one of the best learning experiences for both of us. It was all about the ramifications of a book's worth of AI pontificating about what it would do and what succeeded and what failed. And we were able to validate that that plan document had huge side effects as we prompted with it in the repo. As we read the document we realized that it was just 1.2MB of smart sounding gibberish and maybe two bullet points of signal.
I really, really wish that posts like this would give _specific examples_ of generated code they thought was sub par and what they did to remedy it. It’s not that I don’t believe that they found the output lacking in some way, it’s more that I read the post thinking, “I feel like Claude et al are way better programmers than me but this person is saying they’re more skilled, I’d love to see what their specific issues with generated code were and how they fixed them”. I mean, even one or two short examples would be amazing; without them I just come away with so many questions.
You can almost immediately smell the stink of Claude on a codebase. Maybe there’s nothing “wrong” with the code (it must work, right?) but it’s somehow incredibly off putting.
What interests me is what the “stink” looks like and feels like to you and why you find it so off putting. Let’s get into the weeds. I realise I sound like a therapist.
I’ll be honest, I can’t really quantify it. But the immediate stink is the nonsensical documentation and code comments it spits out. They’re completely unintelligible. I think when I see those I’m predisposed to think everything else going to be equally low quality. I usually just bounce, but when I don’t I just have a really hard time understanding wtf is going on with the code.
- I started programming games in z80 back in 1983. I've had several periods of 1-2 years in my professional career where I have not programmed anything; at best I've still guided others (as lead or producer) and at worst nothing at all, not even looked at code (as director).
It all came back every time I went back to the trenches. The question in my mind is, what do "AI-native" engineers have that they can come back to?
- During these decades, I have relinquished control several times in favor of productivity. From knowing exactly where every byte is placed in RAM and where each cycle goes, to only knowing that for the inner loops, to just knowing the machine code that the C compiler will generate, to dynamic memory and classes and indirections and cache misses, to wasteful but oh so very expressive javascript and python. I stopped writing my own engines and used Unity, Unreal Engine, Phaser, Godot...
Relinquishing control is easy if you are still truly in control of the new layer, and know where the pitfalls are. Where are new engineers going to gain that expertise?
- Regarding addiction, I've also quit smoking. After 25 years of daily cigarettes, one day 16 years ago I just stopped and never touched another one.
I won't pretend that applies to everyone, or even that I'm impervious to other addictions just because that one was so easy to shed. But harder or easier, everyone can stop problematic habits if they are clearly problematic.
- I don't know where we're going with all this AI. I would prefer it had not happened the way it is happening (IP theft, job destruction, race to the bottom, power concentration, etc). I love progress but I don't think the most important aspect of progress is how fast it happens. Speed only helps the greedy and the terminally ill.
But I'm not going to pretend it hasn't, or risk whatever is left of my professional future boycotting it in favor of a different reality, or (who knows) reject a medical treatment just because it was proposed by Opus 7. The world will live or die regardless what I do, but MY world relies on me.
I will continue trying to have enough expertise, passion and attention to detail in what I do and how I do it, that whatever level of control I have over it is as optimal as I can. From typing z80 bytes, to asking Claude to change a 5 for a 6, the above traits are what has always mattered in my experience.
It’s not just coding that’s affected by the skill degradation issue. As a sysadmin and jack of all trades IT engineer over reliance on AI has unsurprisingly led to a serious knowledge dip.
I see great engineers troubleshoot everything by pasting logs into the prompt and blindly accepting the answer. Zero added value while they ctrl-c ctrl-v themselves out of a job.
My workflow leans on AI for some tasks: review what I wrote, drop me a one-off script (this one is the generative exception), and so on.Or even initial scaffolding.
For the rest I do not. I do not place AI-generated code anywhere.
You lose all control AND UNDERSTANDING.
When things go wrong it gets very messy.
I will keep doing this, I think it works well, I emjoy programming and I think it is productive.
For testimg I tend to write randomized testing, which takes a bit of design but oncr you have it, well, it os test-generatove and increases the quality of checks.
I think that comparing AI to cocaine is a really good analogy. It gives you that feeling that you are amazing and can do anything, but it's just a feeling, in the end you are just high and sooner or later will have to come back to reality and face a bad implementation or a hangover
I'd compare it to bath salts (as in α-pvp). I have an unforgettable experience seeing a substance abusive acquaintance of mine feverishly trying to reverse engineer a Doppler radar's output, he was just trying to read raw hex stream of data and find patterns in it.
"See?? Here's that DEAD BEEF CAFFEE again! Look! Again! The FECE FACCA AFFEC7!! I'm so close to crackin' it! Aha.. Aha.. ABEBE23.. BECACA17.. 1337C0C.. It all clicks in place, don't you see? I'm totally getting it!"
He was all bubbling like this throughout the whole night until his brain just issued a shutdown to let the body rest a bit. That was truly a horrible sight.
I remember him every time I see instances of AI psychosis around.
Why don’t you start a company where AI is banned. Surely it will do much better. In fact, you should also believe that most companies will bad AI for the same reason.
Smh new conspiracy theories every day. “Ai is actually a drug and you only feel that it helps you but it doesn’t”
I don't use AI and the company I work for is doing just fine. Why don't you take a daily dose of Ketamine, that may give you interesting ideas like it does for Silicon valley "entrepreneurs". Don't you want to be the next Peter Thiel or Elon Musk?
I would take ketamine if it helps me perform better without adverse side effects.
You’d rather paint AI as if it were a hard drug to cope with the world changing around you. I mean listen to yourself. Im not the one making conspiracy theories.
So you would take drugs if they didn't have adverse effects, but you don't want to see the adverse effects of AI. And I'm not talking about addiction, I'm talking about building over-engineered crap and spending money doing so
For most folks here basic smartphone with tiktok is cocaine. No basic discipline and self-control. Plus they believe everything "expert ai" tells them, no critical thinking, independent verification...
Like toddlers!
Where I find LLMs most useful is maybe not even writing code (though helps with boilerplate and test cases, mechanical refactoring, translation from one form into another, rebases and conflicts), but debugging weird production issues, where I have to pull data from multiple places (with often horrible UX) and correlate the data and logs and code. Just need to be careful to follow its reasoning as it can easily go down the wrong route if it misses some important part of the contex, but an SME in the area spots that and directs the agent accordingly. This cut down time for investigations quite a bit.
agreed, even if i couldn't use an llm for code generation i would still find them really useful.
The point about multitasking getting out of control very much hits home for me. This summer my team tried going hard for agentic coding. Within a month we had 6 people each juggling at least two projects at a time, all the time.
Soon we rediscovered Little’s Law. WIP was piling up and we were getting overwhelmed at the integration phase, and realized that we had got really good at starting projects but actually finishing them was a struggle. Tickets were moving fine, of course. Our rate of generating code and committing PRs was through the roof. But getting actual projects to a point where the stakeholders and customers were happy with the result was just not happening.
So now we have gone back to strict WIP limits and requiring every non-trivial project to have at least two people collaborating on it. The rate at which we are churning out code has gone back down, along with the token bill, but the logjam is clearing. Better yet, the stakeholders, who never cared about our quantitative velocity metrics in the first place, have eased off on complaining that we aren’t getting anything done.
> you stop questioning, and start accepting as good some code you would have never accepted, just because you cannot tell why it’s bad. You have lost control
I have not lost control.
I my most prolific project I do not review the code, but I QA test extensively.
In other projects at work, I review the code.
I prompt to simplify, I challenge implementation that solves irrelevant edge cases, resulting in much smaller PRs.
In projects where I do not work alone, I still write two line PR descriptions myself.
Dumping paragraphs of AI output into the description of a MR where I ask others to review I consider disrespectful.
---
> If you turn off your brain, and relax babysitting AIs, you’re not getting any better. You’re losing value
I'm hardly turning off my brain here.
As the author notes, the context switching and so on takes concentration and effort too.
I can say without doubt that I am more productive than ever.
I am getting better by the month, and I am not currently losing value, until the AI fully replaces both me and the author.
"At some point, I had so many AI agents working, that the focus change was too much for me. There were tasks I could have done in 20 minutes easily, that took 5 minutes of an AI agent, and then 2 days for me to review. Because there were so many other things."
This is a personal time management problem. Not a tool problem.
THere is a lot of temptation to do many things at the same time. For some people this works. For others it doesn't. This is not a tool problem. You simply need to fit the tools in a way that matches your personal workflow.
I can do at most two things at the same time. A friend reads a book when Claude works on a task. We're all different.
"...tasks I could have done in 20 minutes easily, that took 5 minutes of an AI agent, and then 2 days for me to review..."
Yep. Part of the job of a software developer is managing complexity.
It's critical because of its exponential nature: as complexity increases it becomes exponentially more difficult to successfully change, understand, or support the system.
From any given position, AI seems to be the right next single move. When things are simple, it's fast and smooth. When things are complex, sota models can handle it, accounting for the details of dozens or hundreds of things at a time.
The problem is, without strict guidance, it tends to add complexity. If you let it, it builds systems at a rate and in a manner that a human cannot understand it. The best next single move leads to a poor overall position.
Then you have no choice but to keep using AI, and to keep upgrading to the next, more powerful model.
Or retreat.
It's pretty clear to me that, as a whole, we don't know yet how to develop with AI. People are mistaking token output or short-term progress for real progress. They people who are going to be successful with AI-assisted development are going to be the ones who can maintain control of their systems while they do it, and the key skill will be complexity management.
I think there’s a critical difference between AI automation for software development and previous rounds of similar automation, like CNC machines automating manual machining.
The barrier to software development has only ever been computer access and knowledge.
With AI, it’s roughly computer and internet access.
This means we’re getting a lot of people who aren’t good at either software development or AI automation playing with both. It’s the majority of what people seem to talk about.
I don’t think this is bad, but I do think it’s making real progress in AI automated software development on teams which are good at both much less visible.
A conservative team member of mine estimated we’re working at 200x speed these days, compared to 2 years ago. And we still see ways we can improve. A parallel team is only seeing an 1.2x increase, but they are unable to modify their architecture around AI.
Some of this is shifting roles. You can have a mildly technical domain expert vibe code the frontend for a new module. The more AI automation you’ve architected for, the faster they can go and the higher quality the outcome. We’re experimenting with mixing vibe coding with specifying formal requirements to push this further.
This works well. And now you’ve cut dozens of rounds of the PM not knowing the right shape for the new software out of the process. Even if we threw the end code away, this would save us tons of time.
This is just one example.
It's interesting to see these cautionary tales appear. Pretty much playing out exactly how many of us thought they would.
I get the sentiment but really you can't argue you are nearly as productive from a business point of view without LLM agentic assistance. Sure do a hand code Friday to keep skills up similar to how a airplane pilot hand flies in the clouds every now and then to keep up skills, but autopilots most of the time.
You might consider that comparison more deeply.
> I stopped reading those descriptions, like, I told it what to do, I assume it did what I said. The description is for others.
If you cannot read it as the author, what hope do I have to read and make sense of the wall of text which doesn’t seem to describe what I actually need to start reviewing.
I really really encourage everyone to write their own descriptions for PRs. If you cannot succinctly describe it in a way another human understands then you don’t understand your own change and you should withdraw your request.
Well written.
I think there might be (dare I say) a middle ground to get the productivity of the llm, esp as we evolve them, while still maintain a global and even fine-grain comprehension of a code base.
It is not a simple change, however, but a fundamental one.
Overall I think we are still living in the past and try to apply ourselves to the future. But if the ai craze is to be taken clear-headedly for what it is, it is a complete break from the von Neumann computer and all its resulting artifacts. So why should we use the same tools?
There needs to be a Terminator prequel where it's people against the machines fighting people who think the machines will be a net positive.
Wasn't that Terminator 2?
And 3
T2 the war has already happened and Skynet sends the T-100 back in time.
T3 Skynet already exists and is hunting John Connor down
I wanna see the conference room meeting where they decide to push an unfinished, unstoppable technology. I guess T1 is the closest as it happens when Skynet "gains intelligence"
It's time travel, so "already happened" is not well defined.
> I wanna see the conference room meeting where they decide to push an unfinished, unstoppable technology. I guess T1 is the closest as it happens when Skynet "gains intelligence"
This is the mid-point of T3. From the Wikipedia plot summary:
In T2 "it's people against the machines fighting people who think the machines will be a net positive."
it's people (Sarah and her son John who are against the coming skynet machines) fighting people who think the machines will be a net positive (the scientist making machines) AND
it's people (Sarah and her son John and the scientist they convinced the machines are bad) fighting people who think the machines will be a net positive (the company of the scientist which they break into to destroy)
Terminator timelines are somehow confusing. Fear not, this is easily explained in this video from RedLetterMedia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXJiSZhA5cg
I think that movie is Robocop.
That would have to be around the 1970s, when people became concerned that word processors would make people poor writers:
https://youtu.be/Jt0OoXluC8g?t=248 at 4:08
>I went back to TDD, to my PRs with just 5 files changed. To my 2-line PR descriptions that were straight to the point.
It baffles me that someone who prefers TDD can't just stick to writing the tests and then using them to validate and constrain the AI's output. Only making a small number of changes per PR is easy to enforce as well. The problem here doesn't seem to be using AI, it seems to be a lack of discipline in how you use AI.
>There were tasks I could have done in 20 minutes easily, that took 5 minutes of an AI agent, and then 2 days for me to review.
This shouldn't happen at all if you constrain the problem. I've seen it happen many times when you just YOLO a vague spec and just keep prodding it to continue without paying attention to what is being done. If you have a well defined task that should only take 20 minutes of your time then it should only take 10 minutes to review the small amount of output. If the PR is 1000 lines changed then something went wrong, throw it away and rewrite your specification.
I agree. AI + Discipline is the super power of the next generation of software engineers. Crafting guardrails on one's self, and the AI.
I think OPs point though is that, like addiction, discipline is hard to maintain. Humans are irrational, and sometimes, some people just need to go cold turkey.
Essays like these remind me of the story “Bartleby, the Scrivener” by Melville.
productive people who feel alienated by AI and want to just opt out.
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/11231
I've found it helpful to think of models as precisely what they are: bundles of probabilistic textual associations, convolutions of their training, more search engine than "intelligence".
Just having that mental paradigm will lead to more correct uses, and avoid a lot of the most ones most likely to lead one down the primrose path. This cultural moment of SF AI psychosis will pass, but we'll be stuck with the resulting code for a long time.
Also, +1 to the folks saying that code is a liability. More is almost never better. Aim for succinctness and brevity. That cuts directly against the thrust of LLMs' tendency, but will give you plenty to curate.
It's amazing how split-brained the tech industry can be sometimes.
On the one hand, a majority of developers oppose mass data collection and privacy-invasive technologies like ad tech. Many of those same developers also oppose crypto projects because of their energy consumption and environmental impact.
And yet, those same developers have embraced frontier language models--technologies that have simultaneously scraped vast amounts of the world's data, raise serious privacy concerns, and consume massive amounts of energy.
This really feels like someone in 2000s saying: "One Month Without Internet"
This is not worthy of discussing at this juncture
I encourage everyone who is heavily coding with AI to try even a single hour without AI at all. You will be SHOCKED at how your skills have atrophied.
When I ran out of tokens few days ago, I proudly located the bug, fixed it and updated the tests myself. All in 30 min.
Tbh, I felt anxious doing it wondering if I am still able.
Yes it has happened to me and it’s good that it’s happening. Life is always about finding the right abstraction to work on.
Only a fool would believe that without actively coding you can produce good designs. If you don't code, your overall software engineering skills are atrophying.
Okay, but why? This seems to be based purely on presumptions and guessing. Every attempt I've seen at actually measuring it has found the opposite. At some point there's a "code quality of the gaps" going on that I think comes down to "code is designed in a high quality way when I've internalized the design, and poorly when I haven't", which creates a self fulfilling prophecy when one thinks reading code written by an LLM is below them.
Ease of implementation is a decent indicator of good design. If you're delegating implementation to a machine that WILL implement whatever you ask it to implement, however badly designed it is, you don't get that signal at all.
"When you take a draft PR written by AI and have to work on it yourself, you realize to what degree you didn’t know what it was doing. You start questioning if you need this and that, and ultimately discard everything and start over."
This means you need more practice to master the tools.
I'm not saying every PR will be perfect but if you get unwanted slop and you care deeply about that then you need to up your prompting game.
Protip: if none of your system can really be released independently, you're working on one system and should have one repo. Then you dont need a third release repo to orchestrate the release dance. You have a typescript/ruby monorepo without issues.
These days I only use AI once a week the way Astra chews through usage. “Congrats your usage has reset you can get back to… aaaaand it’s gone”
(Haley Joel Osment voice in Sixth Sense)
"I see luddites"
Resistance is futile, you will never code faster than AI, with less bugs, more optimized, with more features, in 200 languages, for a dozen of platforms, desktop, mobile, web, responsive, embedded, a thousand times cheaper than you, in your invisible niche market share (they already found you), not gonna happen, and then you'll cry in a corner that you were laid off, or your business got steamrolled by a new competitor selling slop that nobody understands and nobody will fix either, and you will never accept how people fall for this delusional mania if the beauty of art is in being hand made character by character in a punch card
Slop yourself or get left behind
Ok
> It started reminding me of the strategy where Google lowered the quality of the search results, forcing users to search several times, and see several times as many ads. And if that worked for Google, how is it not going to work for AI? Specially in the uncertain financial times the AI companies are going through, do you really think they would not do it? Come on. They will do this and more.
We’re using an online, undeterministic, black-box middleman to generate our code. It’s 100% Trust me bro. No proof, no scrutiny, no guarantees.
I vehemently oppose delegating our brains to the AI. I agree with the article in spirit.
> let me tell you about this experience, and how it was turning me dumber, lazy, and a worse developer.
Though the article discusses from the point of using agents, I digress to the topic of building with AI in general.
My experience has been the exact opposite. A new idea (usually related to correctness or architecture) is discussed first with the LLM where it defaults to average Joe idiotic bullshit pushback.
This frustrates me and I abuse the LLM for being idiotic by explaining the how. This results in a more refined and concrete form of the abstraction leading me to even more insights.
The LLM remains an idiot. But a useful idiot nonetheless.
> But I’m not going to fucking babysit a machine, sorry.
A machine that does not learn from the feedback. The only thing these LLMs know about after the initial training is what makes it into the context. Imagine if someone couldn't learn anything new without someone else explicitly telling it what was important to the task every single time? You wouldn't call them a junior engineer.
> When I was a child, I remember my parents saying be careful with the bad guys who offer candies at the school gate, those are not candies, those are drugs.
I remember my parents saying "be careful with the bad guys who mow your lawn, fix your appliances, and drive all you kids to school. those are not people who are helping your family get things done more efficiently, those are drugs"
seriously what are we doing with this "AI is a drug" metaphor? Drugs aren't reading logs for me and writing unit tests?
> Once you start using AI coding agents, things spiral out of control very quickly.
no? maybe AI is not for you?
> Except you don’t write the code anymore, you just ask AI to do it, and half of the purpose of TDD (not biasing the tests by how you’ve implemented the code) is gone. But you feel you go so fast that you start not caring.
do you use code review tools? Did someone tell you to stop using them? Review your LLM's code, leave comments, tell your LLM to address the comments. Have you ever worked in management /architecture? Tech managers do this all day long before we had LLMs, it's not new. Except your workers are the smartest junior programmers you've ever had (and that is where AI is a problem, for sure - I worry for junior programmers today).
> It would not be so bad if things had stopped there, but that’s not how most human brains work. If you like something and you can have 2x, you’ll have it. I started pasting the whole Jira description of a ticket, and let AI implement it for me. Yay!! So powerful!!
totally! Have you not already implemented 10000 issues on your own and it's not boring yet? time for issue 10001 then? Whatever floats your boat...
> Control is an illusion. Other folks I’ve discussed this with agree that they don’t know 100% of what the code they are pushing to production actually does. I bet we not even 20%. Fucking scary.
sure have you ever accepted PRs from other people? ones that took a lot of work to read and understand? How is that different? except their code would actually break all the time if you didnt read it and now it's your bug to deal with because they're gone.
> Because if it was just about approving PRs that are perfectly written, it would be good. But for each PR I had to look at the code, the tests, the style, give feedback, switch to something else, go back again, push, see if I have any PR comments,
How do you think large projects get built? all by just one person so nobody has to review anyone else's code? (and even if you are - you still should be putting your own code up for review, reviewing it, and giving yourself comments)
> if CI passed, wait, now the linter complains.
why isn't the linting part of your CI ?
> The description is for others. Because there has to be a description, right? AI is so fucking good as sounding professional, that you relax and let it be. It’s not that I actually thought the code was good, but you get convinced over time, you get lazy, you become complacent. You stop questioning, and start accepting as good some code you would have never accepted, just because you cannot tell why it’s bad. You have lost control.
Just seems like a lot of issues here, so sure, dont use AI it's clearly not your thing. i do not let one line of code I dont think is "good" get committed, period
> Most AI developers will deny it, but deep inside, they know it’s true. Just don’t want to face it.
but dont assign my feelings. speak for yourself. I'm doing this shit for 40 years and you might find it gets a little tedious and repetitive after awhile
> Say no to drugs. Kind of a metaphor, but not quite.
it's a 100% totally wrong metaphor and it needs to die
I think the (currently) intangible skill that we need to develop is when and how the LLMs are appropriate to use. I'm not sure that's possible- I agree with the author's drug analogy.
I generally don't use it for code - I've been writing code for 30 years, so I'm pretty quick, and it's more productive when I look at total time for me to just write things myself.
But not always.
For example, I was recently writing some firmware in MicroPython and needed to implement Bluetooth to control the device.
It's been years since I've written python, since before asyncio. I'd never written MicroPython and didn't really know anything about Bluetooth or BLE.
The AI taught me about how to do it, taught me about how asyncio works (I'm deeply familiar with the model, just not in python), taught me what how Bluetooth works, what GATT characteristics are and gave me some example code that I then took and rewrote to fit my architecture.
I tried to do the normal "find a tutorial on the internet thing" first, but it's filled with worthless AI slop, ads and examples that are so trivial they're only clickbait. It's incredibly frustrating.
Meanwhile, the LLM was succinct, helpful and able to iteratively answer each question I had as learned and got deeper into it, with links to source references I could use to verify the information.
So, basically, a better search engine.
I've been writing code professionally since the 90s, and struggled through learning new things more times than I can count. This was by far the best experience I've had. It was where LLMs really shine.
But, that being said, at the end of the day I wrote the actual code myself and structured it to fit in with the rest of the architecture for the firmware.
I understood everything and when I had to pass it off to another engineer, I was able to describe everything, how it works, and why it's structured the way it is.
> Say no to drugs. Kind of a metaphor, but not quite.
I think AI is even worse than drugs. On the one hand, it has some elements of a slot machine (when you have irregular success with the process, it creates a more powerful cycle of dopamine release on success). On the other hand, it makes work easier, and humans are just wired to choose the easier road. It's like walking or driving a car when you have to travel 10 miles each day. I don't see how, on a civilization scale, AI won't transform our civilization for better or worse.