Worth noting that this is a push from the CDU who are leading the government, but their coalition partner the SPD has already come out pretty strongly against this, so it's rather unclear if this would ever actually go through (not to mention challenges from constitutional courts). The CDU cannot unilaterally push through legislation without the SPD.
The SPD has rolled over for the CDU in the past on things, but they've also blocked things they thought were important enough to block, so it's really anyone's guess if this go through (I personally wouldn't bet on it, but I'm sure a bunch of dour pessimists will come explain to me that it's a foregone conclusion and I'm naive).
First phrase in the article: "Shortly before the German parliament's summer recess, lawmakers approved a whole series of reforms." Sounds like "done and dusted" to me. The Bundesrat (the second chamber of the parliament) also approved, er... something, but it's not clear to me if it's just the health measures or also the rest. What's left is for the Bundespräsident to sign it, but that's a formality.
And yes, no idea why the SPD is so on board with this - some measures, like having to provide a medical certificate from the first day of an illness (which in practice means you have to go see a doctor personally on the first day of sickness), are definitely not going to increase the dismal approval ratings of this government. So, for example, if you're prone to migraines, until now you would have simply called in sick for a day, now you have to drag yourself to the doctor, only for them to tell you (after potentially hours of waiting) "oh, you do look very pale and sickly today, you probably do have a migraine, here's the certificate. I assume you already took one or several headache pills? Now please, go home and rest."?!
Ok, so what did they actually approve? Is this just a "declaration of intent", and the actual laws will follow later?! The article clearly says "lawmakers approved a whole series of reforms" - I was also surprised that this worked so quickly, but what do I know...
I think the article just has poor wording. They went through a raft of different, unrelated reforms already, and this is part of the next set the CDUs want to get through.
Oh, wow, I have to admit that I didn't know that until today (although I have been living in Germany for 26 years now). I kinda just assumed that they are part of the public broadcasting system financed by the "Rundfunkbeitrag"...
It means that this is a cabinet decision, not (yet) legislation. It still has to go through the Bundestag. Given the opposition within the SPD and the idea being very unpopular among voters, it is not yet clear whether this will actually become law.
It is still very worrying and the unfortunate result of a lot of things going wrong at the cabinet level.
This seems to be the latest attempt of the conservative CDU to further reduce transparency and accountability of government officials. One could posit the goal is to enable corruption without all that hassle of the media potentially finding out about it.
Why limit yourself to western countries? In fact, why limit it to countries at all? Isn't it the most popular trope of all time to decry the state of today and romanticise yesterday? People have "not been wanting to work anymore" for at least 150 years, things were always better in the olden days, people don't make 'em like they used to, etm.
There's very little value in a statement like yours. It's a truism that has never been correct.
And I was in Serbia lately, and while it was not as developed as NW-EU, nobody there described it as decaying (and many said they experiences decay when living in western nations over the past 2 decades).
Some people still don't have a clue that it is the almost the entirety of EU member countries in Europe that are rotten and are not doing particularly well.
The only country in Europe that is the exception is Norway which is not part of the EU.
With OP postulating that it is to enable corruption, and a sub-reply affirming that it is therefore the trait of a country in decay, bringing in Serbia as a counter-example is hilarious.
Serbia ranks 116th in the corruption perception index, Germany 10th. (Lower is better)
>And I was in Serbia lately, and while it was not as developed as NW-EU, nobody there described it as decaying (and many said they experiences decay when living in western nations over the past 2 decades)
Yeah, a lot of the western countries that aren't wealthy enough to afford the luxury of indulging in absurd farcical politics and policies over the past 40yr are doing pretty decent.
Economic growth is not the kind that's being referred to. I think Germany is also economically growing? It doesn't matter, they are still decaying in most ways.
In context of the article, the economic performance is hardly relevant. The authoritarian forces are still strong in Poland, their institutional damage persistent.
The Americans who fetishize Poland do it because of their concept of it being 'racially pure' while having a growing economy. They don't particularly care about Ukrainians because Americans don't recognize any racial or ethnic difference between Ukrainians and Poles.
So you are confirming that I'm right in my assertion that the reason you aren't bothered by the Ukrainian refugees in Poland is that you don't see them diluting the racial purity of Poland?
Maybe the other western countries are equally infertile, but just allowed many immigrants in (which counts are population expansion) that also have more children on average.
How are Japan and Korea holing out? They are further down the infertility down-spiral.
The very consumerism that has made it materially wealthy has fucked up its citizens' priorities. Indeed, because the wealth differential over the last 30 years is as steep as it is - and because people are generally petty - it actually creates a perverse incentive to prioritize wealth accumulation over family life just to "keep up". You don't want the Joneses to outdo you. You don't want to seem shabbier.
So, maybe rapid growth combined with consumerist impulses is a deadly combination for a society. If only rapid growth were combined with healthy and wise priorities...
yep, it's the populists communication strategies winning over the voters so people in power can screw the populace as they like and the spin doctors (not the band) will make people think it's in their interest.
Wait? They previously allowed everybody and their mother to request the information? Limiting it to ‘citizens of the european union’ seems eminently reasonable.
There is more to it. To request information you have to have some "legitimate interest" which is not yet defined and sounds like an easy way to not give out information.
Also no more NGOs. They were the ones who had the most power to wrestle information out of the hands of rather unwilling parties. The cost of going to court for this would deter most private persons.
Such a restriction isn’t patently unreasonable but it would make it more difficult for foreign journalists to do research, and it would add the hassle of requiring individuals to show proof of residence when submitting a request. Anonymous requests under pseudonyms would become impossible.
For what it’s worth, only a handful of US states have a residency requirement for FOIA requests.
Maybe, but the more problematic part is disallowing NGOs from submitting information requests. Multiple previous corruption scandals in Germany were exposed exactly because NGOs themselves were allowed to submit these information requests (and pay for them).
Also with the planned changes, you have to prove that you have an legitimate interest in the information. Which makes the whole thing very vague. So the government can just say that they don't think you have a legitimate interest in the information and deny your request. You would then have to sue.
Also also want to invoice you for all costs that your request causes. Previously it was capped at 500€. So your request could cost you thousands of euros. You are at the mercy of the government how many people are working on your request and how efficient they process it.
> Previously it was capped at 500€. So your request could cost you thousands of euros.
To be clear, it is currently costing the taxpayer said thousands of Euros. Time spent by government workers on FoI requests is meaningful and not free. That does not make them a bad idea, but we should be clear that passing costs on to the requester isn't precisely nefarious?
The transparency of this information is a public good in itself, so it is in the interest of the public that this information can be requested as freely as possible.
Of course there should probably be a way to limit waste, but putting all financial cost onto a single person is a way to effectively limit freedom of information to the point where it contradicts and undermines the whole idea behind it. That's one of the reasons why this change is being proposed, and it is not a stretch to call this nefarious.
Yes, it is costing the taxpayer. However, I think there needs to be some cap, because otherwise the government can weaponize that and be extra inefficient when processing requests for things they don't want to become publicly available.
The current cap of 500€ is a good compromise IMHO: It deters people from issuing unnecessary FoI requests while at the same time keeping it in reach for the average person if they really want that information.
If you design processes to be open by design, the cost of extracting data (removing sensitive data that is indeed not needed) goes down radically. Governments know this and resist it.
There are fees that need to be paid to make a freedom of information request (fees which they also want to jack up), and if an NGO offers to pay that fee so that a native German citizen can make the request, it could be construed as foreign interference.
If the fees are raised, individuals will be less willing to pay out of their own pocket. Even if they aren't raised people are less willing to pay out of pocket compared to an NGO or journalism org that had revenue and budget allotments specifically for that purpose. Assuming NGOs will also not be allowed to directly pay for request fees made by their members/collaborators.
The government has a list of pesky troublemakers to target individually if they prove too annoying? I'm sure the good people of Germany can figure out something to charge someone with.
The main "purpose" for such information is to be published, and at that point it makes no difference who exactly requested it.
Personal view:
The current mainly governing party in Germany (CDU/CSU) is a bunch of incompetent, nepotistic gerontocrats, and this change is mainly intended to make it harder for independent press to air their dirty laundry.
Just for reference: Approval rating for Merz (chancellor) is under 20% (!!); even Trump is >35%.
I am wondering if a valid aspect of limiting this to people living in Germany could be to prevent Denial of Service attacks from abroad. Of course these could also be launched from Germans...
It's already the case that if you question Israel's right to exist you are considered an antisemitic terrorist and arrested - they are now trying to codify this into an actual law (not just something the police do).
There is no freedom in Germany. The mistakes of the past did not change anyone's mindset about human rights and freedom. They only learned how to put on a facade of caring about them. And they are the most powerful member of the European Union.
I don't think this would pass at all, the German parliament is now in summer break and once they're back there would be 3 federal state elections and depending on its outcome, the current government could collapse before the end of this year.
Lol, do you seriously think the 'alternative' would be any more progressive when it comes to freedom of information (or government transparency in general) once they'd be in power?
It won’t but how else does general public signal that they do not want whatever mainstream parties are offering. Any proposals? Democracy isn’t working as intended. Autocracy is unacceptable. So what now?
There was already a left party in power. It’s called DDR (East Germany). We all know how it ended. Any government with an extremist party is not a good government, regardless it being left or right.
But then again in a democracy the politicians must listen to peoples vote instead of preaching them and if that has happened in Germany, they they would already be having a center right government instead of the current circus
And I assume you’re the expert on what’s brain washing and not. According to you anything that doesn’t align with your far left ideologies are brainwashed Nazis right?
The proposal to restrict the access to information came from Amthor himself -- he was in the working group to prepare this proposal for the coalition agreement.
It is not a rumour, it is a plain public fact. Amthor's shady connection to Augustus Intelligence was revealed by a request using this law.
Yes, it's his job now doing this. But as long as he doesn't directly say it, we can only assume his personal motivation for taking this job and making this proposal, as also the motivation of those supporting him. So for legal reasons, it's "rumours".
Retaliation for exposing major character flaws of the chancellor’s cabinet and potentially corruptness of major CDU (Christian Democratic Union) figures close to the chancellor seems a plausible answer.
FoIA requests humiliated half of the chancellor’s cabinet this year, including the chancellor himself.
The agricultural minister (CDU) was especially proud of his nickname "the black butcher".
Someone sent a request inquiring about the hygiene protocols of his butchers shop via FoIA and he rather closed shop to deny access to the protocols than hand them out. This is now in front of a court and the media made fun of him for being the black butcher without a butchery.
Digital Minister (CDU) went on TV and proudly announced no more fax machines in his ministry.
Someone sent his undersecretary a fax the same day with the title "Jäger des verlorenen Faxes" which translates into "hunter of the lost fax" and is a Hommage to the German Indiana Jones raiders of the last ark movie title.
Two weeks later the minister sat in an interview and said he needed to correct himself. If he sees another fax machine in his ministry it’s going to get thrown out.
There was a huge conference that is run annually by a company the culture minister (CDU) is controlling that allowed access to major German political figures including private talks, including the minister of economy (CDU), for a fixed price.
It was only uncovered by a FoIA request. It was so bad the Bavarian prime minister had to pull any funding and recommendations to the conference and had to stay away from it after going there for years.
Just this week the mayor of Berlin (CDU) had to give up his spot as top candidate in the upcoming mayoral race because he lied to the press and even lied repeatedly about phoning with the chancellor during the major attack on the energy infrastructure in Berlin by allegedly left-wing extremists.
A FoIA request busted the lying mayor as well as the lying chancellor, whose ministry couldn’t provide any proof they telephoned at all at the time they both said they had phoned, when a court asked them to deliver proof to the court.
This is only on the federal level, in a single year.
IFG/FoIA busted tons of lying and cheating local politicians over the years. Of course, the party that is involved in most of the heavy cases does want this law to die or be completely ineffective.
It’s very annoying for the chancellor that normal people have the right to inform themselves by whom and how decisions were made as soon as public money is involved.
But he’s also calling every German citizen lazy and cheating with sick days, etc., so I’d say the German people have a huge reason to distrust this cabinet and use the IFG/FoIA as the small man’s nuclear bomb, and the cabinet really doesn’t like that the peasants can fight back with the most annoying weapon in their arsenal, counter-bureaucracy.
Recently there was a days long blackout in the middle of winter in Berlin due to a left-extremist attack on power line infrastructure [1]. This was mainly because all those critical infrastructure information is publicly accessible. I can imagine the goal is to prevent such critical information being publicly available in the future.
Also, there was big scandal from then health minister of Germany [2] and the information came out through various media out lets. I can imagine the politicians wants to prevent that happening in the future as well, so the corruption would go undetected (this is just my opinion)
The previous president was burning tens of million of Euros on renting private jets on the taxpayer's dime for trips that weren't related to his duties, and when reporters wanted to investigate this misuse, the government came forward and called the president's travel history (and expenses) a national security topic and remove it from the freedom of information.
Isn't it convenient how you can just cover corruption under the rug by invoking national security? I'm surprised it hasn't been used more often.
I dont think so, they want to repeat it, security-force should be implemented like in east-Germany, capitalism like in west-Germany and the wall is now in the Ukraine build with dead bodies instead of stone.
That historical guilt and awareness are noticeable in Germans and Germany. Their unconditional support of Israel is literally one of the consequences. So was their massive support for refugees.
They are really way stronger in admitting their country crimes the other countries I know about who generally like to pretend none of that ugly stuff was happening.
Shame on you! You turning it upside down, Germany think of them self as the worst war criminal ever (and forever) and that's is why the dont allow themself to ever criticize Israel whatever they do.
It's not just foreign nationals that would be barred from issuing requests but non-profit organizations as well. Also, the cap on fees would be eliminated, further increasing the barriers for people wanting to issue requests.
Is there any material difference between a non-profit asking and people who work for the non-profit asking? Is the maker of the request made public or something?
It sounds like the organizations thing might just be to stop foreign nationals using that as a workaround.
The problem is not to restrict it to German citizens, but removing it for everything which is not a citizen, like civil rights organizations, environment organizations, and everyone else who has a legit interest to check on the governments work.
The plans also include that you have to have some relevant personal relation with the data. This will make it unlikely that an NGO can just request any random data under their staffs name. Additionally, requests should also mirror the real costs, which could go into the thousands or even ten of thousands. This makes it harder to find legit people which are willing to take the risks, even if the NGO could cover the costs.
Of course it's also all just speculation without any real laws written yet, but the direction is there.
The US and UK let anyone in the world file a request, regardless of citizenship.
Countries that don’t usually rationalize: government is answerable primary to those it governs and taxes, limit flood of requests, some laws only extend rights to citizens of countries that offer similar rights back, worry that other governments could use it as low cost intelligence gathering, harder to charge or pursue fees.
Don't they have courts for those things? If they are receiving a flood of unreasonable requests I'm sure they could ask a judge if they really have to do them.
This is a minor point. It gives the government broad power to reject any request, associations and media outlets are excluded, it costs more and the mandatory REDACTION OF NAMES is undercutting accountability completely.
Yea, I don't give a shit wether only citizen should be able to request data.
It excludes organisations and increases fees. So, if say Amnesty or Greenpeace (two NGOs opposing this act) want to FoI something, they have to get a German citizen to do it for them, possibly at considerable expense - and you bet if they try to compensate them, it'll be "foreign interference" and an excuse for suppression.
Like GDPR, the existence of FoI laws give government agencies a reason to develop systems to quickly and effortlessly give people the access they're entitled to. Given the existence of such systems (analogous to the "data takeout" systems businesses must have for PII), giving access to foreigners as well should be unproblematic. It's supposed to be public information in the first place, roadblocks have no place.
As a German citizen let me tell you, the rate of decline this country is in is truly shocking. This is by far the worst government in my lifetime, and remarkably there is wide consensus about it across the population (above 85% dissatisfaction, if you think I am exaggerating here).
Industry and trade associations aren't happy either, which raises the question who asks for this? Life is getting forcefully precarious for a lot of people: Reduction of labor rights; stigmatization of unemployment, down to calls for forced labor; inflation; heavy increase in taxes; unaffordable housing... Mind you, none of that is economically necessary (e.g. we could prosecute tax evasion and tax the rich to begin with). All while transparency and democratic institutions are needlessly eroded.
And then there is the real threat of a next AfD (fascists oligarchy party) government looming above all. It's like CDU/SPD are preparing for a authoritarian take-over. Incidentally, there are documented connections between CDU leaders and foreign think tanks like The Heritage Foundation. Not to mention the constant endorsement and promotion of the AfD by Musk and Vance.
It's fucking wild and scary. I honestly fear, Germany is past the point of no return. I think we got moderately lucky Trump decided to outdo himself with Iran, and then the recent record heat wave, which felt downright apocalyptic. The theoretical negative consequences of some policies became immediately very tangible and undeniable. But I am not sure that's enough to shake up people. The opposition is somewhat complicit by not stepping up and presenting a vision towards democracy, equality and reason.
When you are leading manufacturing power in region and loosing markets to China while allowing external powers to destroy your energy supplies(banning nuclear and blowing Nord Stream 2).
No political bullshit will help with objective reality, being it rightoids who promise "optimizing" social spendings(while leaching on corruption) or leftoids who want to tax the rich(which will just drive factories and businesses to Poland/China/etc).
> This is by far the worst government in my lifetime
I guess we all can safely conclude that all governments of the word (world's government? shoot that tinfoilhat), at least those who have any meaningful means of destruction at hand, are the worst not only in our, but also our parents' lifetimes (assuming the mean age of HN commenters as 30-40).
I think especially in the US it presents as fascism, and the AfD clearly models itself to their image, but fundamentally I think it's globally rather an anti-democratic, social-darwinistic oligarchy. Nothing in current German politics could be described as "ultra-nationalistic" or pushing a personality cult, but rather as semi-opaque sell-out of the country. I think it presents as fascism, but it's more opportunistic and not as ideologically driven as it's been in the past.
Look, Thiel is gay, Weidel is gay, Spahn is gay and they all push anti-LGBT policies globally. They are cynic, self-absorbed, "got mine" psychopaths. They don't feel better because they are white or German, but because they got power, influence and wealth. I almost wish they were nationalists or had an honest concern for any share of the general population. Their politics wouldn't be as destructive. Instead they are building bunkers.
Some make the argument, capitalism needed democracy facing the soviet authoritarian system enemy of the past, but now this freedom and participation has become a weakness in current corporate geopolitics. China has shown, you can have "the best" of both worlds. I personally think, it's just the logical consequence of wealth centralization and inequality we allowed to happen.
The question is ultimately, what kind of culture makes a people, really. Do they deeply identify as free citizens or serfs? For example, the Russians never had a bottom up revolution or systemic change, I don't expect them to rise up no matter the suck. The US is difficult to judge, because of the racial divide and red scare brainwashing era preventing post-war revolutionary tradition found across Europe. They are still very influenced by dogma and repressed emotions. Things are pretty bad and they haven't done shit, so I am afraid they will bow to the suck.
Here in Germany, I don't know. People, grew up learning there is a time for just violence. Looking at past gigantic anti-AfD demonstrations, I am hopeful, if it has to be done, it will get done. I hope there is a large enough share of the population which will make any fundamental power change unsustainable. Right now, people are in shock and still cling to their old realities, but something is brewing already. The generational injustice helps. Then again, large parts of the population are evidently fucking idiots and senile got-mines.
Worth noting that this is a push from the CDU who are leading the government, but their coalition partner the SPD has already come out pretty strongly against this, so it's rather unclear if this would ever actually go through (not to mention challenges from constitutional courts). The CDU cannot unilaterally push through legislation without the SPD.
The SPD has rolled over for the CDU in the past on things, but they've also blocked things they thought were important enough to block, so it's really anyone's guess if this go through (I personally wouldn't bet on it, but I'm sure a bunch of dour pessimists will come explain to me that it's a foregone conclusion and I'm naive).
"SPD will block this" is contradicted by SPD already voting for the identical Berlin version weeks ago.
Not identical but similar and state vs federal level, might as well be different parties. Thats not to say I am not Just as worried as you
SPD has no integrity either way
First phrase in the article: "Shortly before the German parliament's summer recess, lawmakers approved a whole series of reforms." Sounds like "done and dusted" to me. The Bundesrat (the second chamber of the parliament) also approved, er... something, but it's not clear to me if it's just the health measures or also the rest. What's left is for the Bundespräsident to sign it, but that's a formality.
And yes, no idea why the SPD is so on board with this - some measures, like having to provide a medical certificate from the first day of an illness (which in practice means you have to go see a doctor personally on the first day of sickness), are definitely not going to increase the dismal approval ratings of this government. So, for example, if you're prone to migraines, until now you would have simply called in sick for a day, now you have to drag yourself to the doctor, only for them to tell you (after potentially hours of waiting) "oh, you do look very pale and sickly today, you probably do have a migraine, here's the certificate. I assume you already took one or several headache pills? Now please, go home and rest."?!
This hasn't been voted on in the Bundesttag yet, let alone the Bundesrat or Bundespräsident.
Ok, so what did they actually approve? Is this just a "declaration of intent", and the actual laws will follow later?! The article clearly says "lawmakers approved a whole series of reforms" - I was also surprised that this worked so quickly, but what do I know...
Declaration of intent is a good description. Nothing is decided yet. I don't think the laws are written yet and there was definitely no vote yet.
I think the article just has poor wording. They went through a raft of different, unrelated reforms already, and this is part of the next set the CDUs want to get through.
DW is the only media outlet in Germany financed directly via taxes. They are unlikely to be impartial
Oh, wow, I have to admit that I didn't know that until today (although I have been living in Germany for 26 years now). I kinda just assumed that they are part of the public broadcasting system financed by the "Rundfunkbeitrag"...
It means that this is a cabinet decision, not (yet) legislation. It still has to go through the Bundestag. Given the opposition within the SPD and the idea being very unpopular among voters, it is not yet clear whether this will actually become law.
It is still very worrying and the unfortunate result of a lot of things going wrong at the cabinet level.
This seems to be the latest attempt of the conservative CDU to further reduce transparency and accountability of government officials. One could posit the goal is to enable corruption without all that hassle of the media potentially finding out about it.
A country in decay..
I'd generally agree, but my follow up question would be: which western country isn't?
Why limit yourself to western countries? In fact, why limit it to countries at all? Isn't it the most popular trope of all time to decry the state of today and romanticise yesterday? People have "not been wanting to work anymore" for at least 150 years, things were always better in the olden days, people don't make 'em like they used to, etm.
There's very little value in a statement like yours. It's a truism that has never been correct.
> things were always better in the olden days, people don't make 'em like they used to.
Just because successive generations make the same observations about <X> doesn't mean that <X> hasn't actually been steadily declining, you know.
Denmark?
The Swiss?
Norway?
And I was in Serbia lately, and while it was not as developed as NW-EU, nobody there described it as decaying (and many said they experiences decay when living in western nations over the past 2 decades).
Denmark is the architect of Chat Control. Even the extreme version that requires all E2E communications be accessible to the government.
Denmark is not just decayed, it is completely rotten.
I wasn't expecting to find Hamlet in these comments...
Some people still don't have a clue that it is the almost the entirety of EU member countries in Europe that are rotten and are not doing particularly well.
The only country in Europe that is the exception is Norway which is not part of the EU.
> And I was in Serbia lately [..]
With OP postulating that it is to enable corruption, and a sub-reply affirming that it is therefore the trait of a country in decay, bringing in Serbia as a counter-example is hilarious.
Serbia ranks 116th in the corruption perception index, Germany 10th. (Lower is better)
yeah, but decaying means something gets worse. Maybe corruption is getting less in Serbia despite still being bad?
>And I was in Serbia lately, and while it was not as developed as NW-EU, nobody there described it as decaying (and many said they experiences decay when living in western nations over the past 2 decades)
Yeah, a lot of the western countries that aren't wealthy enough to afford the luxury of indulging in absurd farcical politics and policies over the past 40yr are doing pretty decent.
Who said there was one?
That it sucks elsewhere means we can't decry this instance?
Poland, but its on borrowed time due to the extreme fertility crisis.
That impacts the whole developed world, it’s not a polish issue
Lol, what on earth makes you single out Poland as the single western country not in decay right now?
Its economy has been growing for 30 years non-stop, to the point that it is now compared to Singapore.
Economic growth is not the kind that's being referred to. I think Germany is also economically growing? It doesn't matter, they are still decaying in most ways.
In context of the article, the economic performance is hardly relevant. The authoritarian forces are still strong in Poland, their institutional damage persistent.
It doesn’t have immigrants so the right wing tries extra hard to paint it as rosy.
There are about 1.5 million immigrants from Ukraine alone.
The Americans who fetishize Poland do it because of their concept of it being 'racially pure' while having a growing economy. They don't particularly care about Ukrainians because Americans don't recognize any racial or ethnic difference between Ukrainians and Poles.
Look up a map of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth
So you are confirming that I'm right in my assertion that the reason you aren't bothered by the Ukrainian refugees in Poland is that you don't see them diluting the racial purity of Poland?
Where is the lie?
Ding Ding Ding
Is fertility so important?
Maybe the other western countries are equally infertile, but just allowed many immigrants in (which counts are population expansion) that also have more children on average.
How are Japan and Korea holing out? They are further down the infertility down-spiral.
Yeah, it's pretty important if you are interested in the continued existence of your society
>How are Japan and Korea holing out?
https://japandaily.jp/why-japanese-elders-choose-prison-over...
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/1-in-3-south-kor...
> Is fertility so important?
Westerners have been the biggest victims of propaganda in the history of the world.
Please provide evidence. Also westerners from which point of view?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZggCipbiHwE
The very consumerism that has made it materially wealthy has fucked up its citizens' priorities. Indeed, because the wealth differential over the last 30 years is as steep as it is - and because people are generally petty - it actually creates a perverse incentive to prioritize wealth accumulation over family life just to "keep up". You don't want the Joneses to outdo you. You don't want to seem shabbier.
So, maybe rapid growth combined with consumerist impulses is a deadly combination for a society. If only rapid growth were combined with healthy and wise priorities...
yep, it's the populists communication strategies winning over the voters so people in power can screw the populace as they like and the spin doctors (not the band) will make people think it's in their interest.
AfD will come and rescue everyone. /s
Wait? They previously allowed everybody and their mother to request the information? Limiting it to ‘citizens of the european union’ seems eminently reasonable.
There is more to it. To request information you have to have some "legitimate interest" which is not yet defined and sounds like an easy way to not give out information.
Also no more NGOs. They were the ones who had the most power to wrestle information out of the hands of rather unwilling parties. The cost of going to court for this would deter most private persons.
Such a restriction isn’t patently unreasonable but it would make it more difficult for foreign journalists to do research, and it would add the hassle of requiring individuals to show proof of residence when submitting a request. Anonymous requests under pseudonyms would become impossible.
For what it’s worth, only a handful of US states have a residency requirement for FOIA requests.
Maybe, but the more problematic part is disallowing NGOs from submitting information requests. Multiple previous corruption scandals in Germany were exposed exactly because NGOs themselves were allowed to submit these information requests (and pay for them).
IMHO banning organisations from making requests will have no effect. People will just make requests in their own names, instead, then what?
Also with the planned changes, you have to prove that you have an legitimate interest in the information. Which makes the whole thing very vague. So the government can just say that they don't think you have a legitimate interest in the information and deny your request. You would then have to sue.
Also also want to invoice you for all costs that your request causes. Previously it was capped at 500€. So your request could cost you thousands of euros. You are at the mercy of the government how many people are working on your request and how efficient they process it.
> Previously it was capped at 500€. So your request could cost you thousands of euros.
To be clear, it is currently costing the taxpayer said thousands of Euros. Time spent by government workers on FoI requests is meaningful and not free. That does not make them a bad idea, but we should be clear that passing costs on to the requester isn't precisely nefarious?
The transparency of this information is a public good in itself, so it is in the interest of the public that this information can be requested as freely as possible.
Of course there should probably be a way to limit waste, but putting all financial cost onto a single person is a way to effectively limit freedom of information to the point where it contradicts and undermines the whole idea behind it. That's one of the reasons why this change is being proposed, and it is not a stretch to call this nefarious.
Yes, it is costing the taxpayer. However, I think there needs to be some cap, because otherwise the government can weaponize that and be extra inefficient when processing requests for things they don't want to become publicly available.
The current cap of 500€ is a good compromise IMHO: It deters people from issuing unnecessary FoI requests while at the same time keeping it in reach for the average person if they really want that information.
If you design processes to be open by design, the cost of extracting data (removing sensitive data that is indeed not needed) goes down radically. Governments know this and resist it.
There are fees that need to be paid to make a freedom of information request (fees which they also want to jack up), and if an NGO offers to pay that fee so that a native German citizen can make the request, it could be construed as foreign interference.
If the fees are raised, individuals will be less willing to pay out of their own pocket. Even if they aren't raised people are less willing to pay out of pocket compared to an NGO or journalism org that had revenue and budget allotments specifically for that purpose. Assuming NGOs will also not be allowed to directly pay for request fees made by their members/collaborators.
The government has a list of pesky troublemakers to target individually if they prove too annoying? I'm sure the good people of Germany can figure out something to charge someone with.
Not really.
The main "purpose" for such information is to be published, and at that point it makes no difference who exactly requested it.
Personal view:
The current mainly governing party in Germany (CDU/CSU) is a bunch of incompetent, nepotistic gerontocrats, and this change is mainly intended to make it harder for independent press to air their dirty laundry.
Just for reference: Approval rating for Merz (chancellor) is under 20% (!!); even Trump is >35%.
I am wondering if a valid aspect of limiting this to people living in Germany could be to prevent Denial of Service attacks from abroad. Of course these could also be launched from Germans...
Under the current law you already have to pay up to 500€ for a request. That would be a very costly DoS attack.
Won't this require citizen to provide ID and therefore citizens asking difficult questions could become a target for retaliation?
Yes, and there is currently talks if this also means NGOs like FragDenStaat or media outlets could no longer request information.
You can also be a resident, paying plenty of taxes, yet not be a citizen.
was already the case https://www.bverwg.de/pm/2024/10
It's already the case that if you question Israel's right to exist you are considered an antisemitic terrorist and arrested - they are now trying to codify this into an actual law (not just something the police do).
There is no freedom in Germany. The mistakes of the past did not change anyone's mindset about human rights and freedom. They only learned how to put on a facade of caring about them. And they are the most powerful member of the European Union.
> The mistakes of the past did not change anyone's mindset about human rights and freedom
As if anybody who experienced this themselves has a big influence on current politics...WW2 ended 81 years ago
I don't think this would pass at all, the German parliament is now in summer break and once they're back there would be 3 federal state elections and depending on its outcome, the current government could collapse before the end of this year.
Lol, do you seriously think the 'alternative' would be any more progressive when it comes to freedom of information (or government transparency in general) once they'd be in power?
It won’t but how else does general public signal that they do not want whatever mainstream parties are offering. Any proposals? Democracy isn’t working as intended. Autocracy is unacceptable. So what now?
I guess the Left or the Greens or the useless SPD could theoretically win the elections.
It won't happen though. It'll be AfD.
There was already a left party in power. It’s called DDR (East Germany). We all know how it ended. Any government with an extremist party is not a good government, regardless it being left or right.
But then again in a democracy the politicians must listen to peoples vote instead of preaching them and if that has happened in Germany, they they would already be having a center right government instead of the current circus
I don’t think so. But if that’s what the people want who are you or me to question that? It’s the people’s will and democracy in action
Democracy doesn't always lead to what people actually want, in an era of widespread brainwashing.
And I assume you’re the expert on what’s brain washing and not. According to you anything that doesn’t align with your far left ideologies are brainwashed Nazis right?
What incidents are driving such a change?
Rumour goes that too many high ranking fraudulent CDU-politicians were exposed with this (Philipp Amthor and Jens Spahn for example).
The proposal to restrict the access to information came from Amthor himself -- he was in the working group to prepare this proposal for the coalition agreement.
It is not a rumour, it is a plain public fact. Amthor's shady connection to Augustus Intelligence was revealed by a request using this law.
https://fragdenstaat.de/artikel/exklusiv/2025/03/union-will-... (In German)
Yes, it's his job now doing this. But as long as he doesn't directly say it, we can only assume his personal motivation for taking this job and making this proposal, as also the motivation of those supporting him. So for legal reasons, it's "rumours".
Fair enough. And you are definitely better than them! :-) You are too kind to these people.
Retaliation for exposing major character flaws of the chancellor’s cabinet and potentially corruptness of major CDU (Christian Democratic Union) figures close to the chancellor seems a plausible answer.
FoIA requests humiliated half of the chancellor’s cabinet this year, including the chancellor himself.
The agricultural minister (CDU) was especially proud of his nickname "the black butcher".
Someone sent a request inquiring about the hygiene protocols of his butchers shop via FoIA and he rather closed shop to deny access to the protocols than hand them out. This is now in front of a court and the media made fun of him for being the black butcher without a butchery.
Digital Minister (CDU) went on TV and proudly announced no more fax machines in his ministry.
Someone sent his undersecretary a fax the same day with the title "Jäger des verlorenen Faxes" which translates into "hunter of the lost fax" and is a Hommage to the German Indiana Jones raiders of the last ark movie title.
Two weeks later the minister sat in an interview and said he needed to correct himself. If he sees another fax machine in his ministry it’s going to get thrown out.
There was a huge conference that is run annually by a company the culture minister (CDU) is controlling that allowed access to major German political figures including private talks, including the minister of economy (CDU), for a fixed price.
It was only uncovered by a FoIA request. It was so bad the Bavarian prime minister had to pull any funding and recommendations to the conference and had to stay away from it after going there for years.
Just this week the mayor of Berlin (CDU) had to give up his spot as top candidate in the upcoming mayoral race because he lied to the press and even lied repeatedly about phoning with the chancellor during the major attack on the energy infrastructure in Berlin by allegedly left-wing extremists.
A FoIA request busted the lying mayor as well as the lying chancellor, whose ministry couldn’t provide any proof they telephoned at all at the time they both said they had phoned, when a court asked them to deliver proof to the court.
This is only on the federal level, in a single year.
IFG/FoIA busted tons of lying and cheating local politicians over the years. Of course, the party that is involved in most of the heavy cases does want this law to die or be completely ineffective.
It’s very annoying for the chancellor that normal people have the right to inform themselves by whom and how decisions were made as soon as public money is involved.
But he’s also calling every German citizen lazy and cheating with sick days, etc., so I’d say the German people have a huge reason to distrust this cabinet and use the IFG/FoIA as the small man’s nuclear bomb, and the cabinet really doesn’t like that the peasants can fight back with the most annoying weapon in their arsenal, counter-bureaucracy.
Recently there was a days long blackout in the middle of winter in Berlin due to a left-extremist attack on power line infrastructure [1]. This was mainly because all those critical infrastructure information is publicly accessible. I can imagine the goal is to prevent such critical information being publicly available in the future.
Also, there was big scandal from then health minister of Germany [2] and the information came out through various media out lets. I can imagine the politicians wants to prevent that happening in the future as well, so the corruption would go undetected (this is just my opinion)
[1]- https://www.dw.com/en/berlin-blackout-how-dangerous-are-left... [2] - https://www.dw.com/en/covid-19-german-govt-suffers-defeat-in...
Same thing happened in Romania.
The previous president was burning tens of million of Euros on renting private jets on the taxpayer's dime for trips that weren't related to his duties, and when reporters wanted to investigate this misuse, the government came forward and called the president's travel history (and expenses) a national security topic and remove it from the freedom of information.
Isn't it convenient how you can just cover corruption under the rug by invoking national security? I'm surprised it hasn't been used more often.
Germany is forgetting history already.
I dont think so, they want to repeat it, security-force should be implemented like in east-Germany, capitalism like in west-Germany and the wall is now in the Ukraine build with dead bodies instead of stone.
Germany has learned from history and become Israel's biggest supporter.
That historical guilt and awareness are noticeable in Germans and Germany. Their unconditional support of Israel is literally one of the consequences. So was their massive support for refugees.
They are really way stronger in admitting their country crimes the other countries I know about who generally like to pretend none of that ugly stuff was happening.
Shame on you! You turning it upside down, Germany think of them self as the worst war criminal ever (and forever) and that's is why the dont allow themself to ever criticize Israel whatever they do.
I'm not really sure I buy the alarm on restricting FoI requests to German citizens and EU citizens in Germany.
Should a random US citizen be able to ask a random Germany government official for data? Why?
It's not just foreign nationals that would be barred from issuing requests but non-profit organizations as well. Also, the cap on fees would be eliminated, further increasing the barriers for people wanting to issue requests.
Is there any material difference between a non-profit asking and people who work for the non-profit asking? Is the maker of the request made public or something?
It sounds like the organizations thing might just be to stop foreign nationals using that as a workaround.
I'm unsure if non-profit funds can be used in that way for a (technically) private inquiry.
Forcing you to publicly attach your name to something is often a form of intimidation.
The problem is not to restrict it to German citizens, but removing it for everything which is not a citizen, like civil rights organizations, environment organizations, and everyone else who has a legit interest to check on the governments work.
Civil rights organisations are staffed by citizens. What is the problem here?
The plans also include that you have to have some relevant personal relation with the data. This will make it unlikely that an NGO can just request any random data under their staffs name. Additionally, requests should also mirror the real costs, which could go into the thousands or even ten of thousands. This makes it harder to find legit people which are willing to take the risks, even if the NGO could cover the costs.
Of course it's also all just speculation without any real laws written yet, but the direction is there.
What is the rationale to restrict it to citizens? Do you prefer a more open or more closed society?
The US and UK let anyone in the world file a request, regardless of citizenship.
Countries that don’t usually rationalize: government is answerable primary to those it governs and taxes, limit flood of requests, some laws only extend rights to citizens of countries that offer similar rights back, worry that other governments could use it as low cost intelligence gathering, harder to charge or pursue fees.
Don't they have courts for those things? If they are receiving a flood of unreasonable requests I'm sure they could ask a judge if they really have to do them.
Define society. Is some dude in the USA, or UK part of the German society?
Can some dude in the USA or UK go to Germany?
How about the us citizen who is a permanent resident in Germany? German family? Business partners?
This is a minor point. It gives the government broad power to reject any request, associations and media outlets are excluded, it costs more and the mandatory REDACTION OF NAMES is undercutting accountability completely.
Yea, I don't give a shit wether only citizen should be able to request data.
The politicians' names are mandatorily redacted, but the requestor's name is mandatorily not redacted. Very convenient, really.
It excludes organisations and increases fees. So, if say Amnesty or Greenpeace (two NGOs opposing this act) want to FoI something, they have to get a German citizen to do it for them, possibly at considerable expense - and you bet if they try to compensate them, it'll be "foreign interference" and an excuse for suppression.
Like GDPR, the existence of FoI laws give government agencies a reason to develop systems to quickly and effortlessly give people the access they're entitled to. Given the existence of such systems (analogous to the "data takeout" systems businesses must have for PII), giving access to foreigners as well should be unproblematic. It's supposed to be public information in the first place, roadblocks have no place.
As a German citizen let me tell you, the rate of decline this country is in is truly shocking. This is by far the worst government in my lifetime, and remarkably there is wide consensus about it across the population (above 85% dissatisfaction, if you think I am exaggerating here).
Industry and trade associations aren't happy either, which raises the question who asks for this? Life is getting forcefully precarious for a lot of people: Reduction of labor rights; stigmatization of unemployment, down to calls for forced labor; inflation; heavy increase in taxes; unaffordable housing... Mind you, none of that is economically necessary (e.g. we could prosecute tax evasion and tax the rich to begin with). All while transparency and democratic institutions are needlessly eroded.
And then there is the real threat of a next AfD (fascists oligarchy party) government looming above all. It's like CDU/SPD are preparing for a authoritarian take-over. Incidentally, there are documented connections between CDU leaders and foreign think tanks like The Heritage Foundation. Not to mention the constant endorsement and promotion of the AfD by Musk and Vance.
It's fucking wild and scary. I honestly fear, Germany is past the point of no return. I think we got moderately lucky Trump decided to outdo himself with Iran, and then the recent record heat wave, which felt downright apocalyptic. The theoretical negative consequences of some policies became immediately very tangible and undeniable. But I am not sure that's enough to shake up people. The opposition is somewhat complicit by not stepping up and presenting a vision towards democracy, equality and reason.
When you are leading manufacturing power in region and loosing markets to China while allowing external powers to destroy your energy supplies(banning nuclear and blowing Nord Stream 2).
No political bullshit will help with objective reality, being it rightoids who promise "optimizing" social spendings(while leaching on corruption) or leftoids who want to tax the rich(which will just drive factories and businesses to Poland/China/etc).
You could end the practice of land rent. This would encourage productive activity instead of treading economic water.
> This is by far the worst government in my lifetime
I guess we all can safely conclude that all governments of the word (world's government? shoot that tinfoilhat), at least those who have any meaningful means of destruction at hand, are the worst not only in our, but also our parents' lifetimes (assuming the mean age of HN commenters as 30-40).
TL;DR: The fascism is back.
I think especially in the US it presents as fascism, and the AfD clearly models itself to their image, but fundamentally I think it's globally rather an anti-democratic, social-darwinistic oligarchy. Nothing in current German politics could be described as "ultra-nationalistic" or pushing a personality cult, but rather as semi-opaque sell-out of the country. I think it presents as fascism, but it's more opportunistic and not as ideologically driven as it's been in the past.
Look, Thiel is gay, Weidel is gay, Spahn is gay and they all push anti-LGBT policies globally. They are cynic, self-absorbed, "got mine" psychopaths. They don't feel better because they are white or German, but because they got power, influence and wealth. I almost wish they were nationalists or had an honest concern for any share of the general population. Their politics wouldn't be as destructive. Instead they are building bunkers.
Some make the argument, capitalism needed democracy facing the soviet authoritarian system enemy of the past, but now this freedom and participation has become a weakness in current corporate geopolitics. China has shown, you can have "the best" of both worlds. I personally think, it's just the logical consequence of wealth centralization and inequality we allowed to happen.
The question is ultimately, what kind of culture makes a people, really. Do they deeply identify as free citizens or serfs? For example, the Russians never had a bottom up revolution or systemic change, I don't expect them to rise up no matter the suck. The US is difficult to judge, because of the racial divide and red scare brainwashing era preventing post-war revolutionary tradition found across Europe. They are still very influenced by dogma and repressed emotions. Things are pretty bad and they haven't done shit, so I am afraid they will bow to the suck.
Here in Germany, I don't know. People, grew up learning there is a time for just violence. Looking at past gigantic anti-AfD demonstrations, I am hopeful, if it has to be done, it will get done. I hope there is a large enough share of the population which will make any fundamental power change unsustainable. Right now, people are in shock and still cling to their old realities, but something is brewing already. The generational injustice helps. Then again, large parts of the population are evidently fucking idiots and senile got-mines.
Germany is not fascist. It strongly supports Israel.