Any container designed to hold hot things should have a pressure release valve.
It can be seals that buckle before the lid. It can be a tiny hole with a soft rubber stopper. It can be one of many things that cost a couple of cents extra and a bit more engineering and testing effort.
The cheapest disposable coffee cups I've used have a tiny hole for the express purpose of not pressurizing and spilling hot liquid everywhere.
There's a lot of conversation in the comments about "was there was an expectation that the pressure release valve would be there" There absolutely is a safety expectation that a sealed container of hot food is designed with a pressure release system.
BTW the fermented food thing is a misdirection. The pressure release system should have released pressure way before it even reached ballistic territory.
My steam cleaner recently was recalled and sent me a new cap with a built-in pressure-locking valve. People were opening it too early and getting burns. Heat and pressure can be very dangerous.
Initially assumed it was due to some sort of contamination or production defect.
Turns out people leave perishable and fermenting foods in the thermos, and after a while when opened, the pressure lifts the lid of the thermos at quasi-unimaginable speeds, striking the curiously unsuspecting humans straight in the face, with some instances causing permanent damage to vision.
Coffee is hot, but a pressure release system is cool too..
I really hope we get a video out of this to see how bad it actually is and how much "pressure" is needed for this.
> Incidents/Injuries:
Thermos has received 27 reports of consumers who were struck by a stopper that forcefully ejected from these containers upon opening, including complaints of impact and laceration injuries requiring medical attention. Three consumers suffered permanent vision loss after being struck in the eye.
That's an awefully large amount of reports about this. I wonder what about the design makes it a rocket compared to what I would assume is a pretty standard design?
> The Stainless King™ 470ml Vacuum Insulated Food Jar is the ultimate day to day companion to keep your food at optimal temperatures. Keep fruit fresh and vegetables cool for up to 14 hours while you take on the day. For your favourite soups, pastas or stir fry, they’ll stay warm for up to 9 hours – ideal for taking last nights left overs. You can be sure that your food will be perfect for consumption at lunchtime after you pack it in the morning. The wide mouth makes it easy to fill and clean, and comes crowned with a stainless steel lid that doubles as a serving bowl. Plus, it comes with a handy stainless steel spoon that fits neatly into the lid compartment.
It's meant for storing food, for anyone who is confused why someone would be.
> I wonder what about the design makes it a rocket compared to what I would assume is a pretty standard design?
Injuries nonwithstanding, the quality of the seal means it was an exceptionally well designed item for the purpose of storing 99% water.
side note: there's a reason you get a visit from the FBI if you buy ten pressure cookers (e.g. if you find a great Black Friday deal and have a large family and plan Christmas gifts...)
Yes, the article seems to be not detailed enough. They show the pictures, and it is evident what the pressure release valve is, but I agree that by this logic any container or any steel water bottle is dangerous. Maybe there is some other additional feature that makes it particularly dangerous compared to other models (like, the new seal keeps higher pressure, or the lid needs fewer rotations to disengage, etc.) that is not explained here and makes all the difference. Older models didn't even have a pressure relief valve, did they?
I've never seen a thermos-style container with a pressure relief in my life. However, I'm European, it appears that in the US (a country where you have to write disclaimers on microwaves that you shouldn't dry hamsters in them) common sense has been going down the toilet.
Frankly, I'm all for a bit of darwinism here. It's bewildering that there are people who think it's a good idea to open a thermos that has been fermenting for days if not weeks without a lot of caution!
Most lids you've ever used have pressure relief. It's not an extra part or valve or anything, it's just the simple geometry to ensure that the seal opens before the lid becomes mechanically free.
Thermos has only been producing flasks since 1904. There shouldn't be an expectation that they already have this on a checklist of things to watch out for in new designs. /s
I said "given it should be there" because Thermos have just issued a recall notice where they openly admit liability and they openly state it should be there (see side by side photos in the recall).
I was never seeking to pass judgement on the factual element of whether "it should be there" in the pure definition of the term.
I was just saying "it should be there on THAT product because Thermos says so".
On a planet where fermentation exists, such as planet Earth, the only planet on which we, humans, reside and therefore where these containers are made and used, that means pressure.
Isn't the point of a thermos to put "perishable and fermenting foods" in it, like coffee or tea? Like this could totally have been me, like make a thermos-full of coffee one day, then forget about it only to come back to in some weeks just to open it and have one of my eyes blown off
That sucks. I have both and the ones with the pressure relieve valve are a pain in the ass to clean. You have to pull out the rubber inner thingy, you can't get a towel inside the hole that thingy goes into, and in general the rubber thing gets lost easily. I wish Thermos would send me a few of those 8 million stoppers, I'll promise I won't be a dumbass with them :(
I too from the headline assumed it was some sort of chemical contamination during manufacturing.
But then I read the words "The malfunction is due to multiple models of containers missing a pressure relief function in the center of the stopper."
How non-existent does your quality assurance have to be in order to miss such a critical, obvious and easy to identify flaw ?
Looking at the published photographs, you don't even need training to identify that manufacturing defect. A five year old could spot the difference between "lid has a hole" and "lid does not have a hole".
I've never seen a thermos bottle with a relief valve. Not sure if all manufacturers in Europe have nonexistent QA or if it's just not a thing that's commonly needed since you can't heat the contents up in there anyway (it's not like an insulated water boiler, which does have a release valve). Never considered that someone might leave food in there long enough to build up explosive pressure. Feels a bit like saying a missing cat detector function in microwave ovens points at them having no quality control
There is a well known solution. Look at most PET bottles. The thread (mostly on the cap) is not continuous. That's for the pressure to relieve before the cap is off, and that could happen from a coke bottle or so to you.
Happened to me once. I was emptying one of my child’s thermoses in the bathroom when it suddenly "exploded" and sprayed the contents all over the bathroom walls. Quite a remarkable day :)
I didn't consider it a defect, though. I can hardly imagine cheap products adopting this solution.
If it's a forceful opening and you're not holding the top tightly, then I imagine the top could launch upwards. I know from experience this can also happen if you put just a bit of boiling water in and seal it. The air expands under heat and will push the top out whilst you're unscrewing. A version of this top comes with a metal spoon & raised holder built in, providing some edges to hit you with and an extra projectile.
Had this happen to me once, though totally my own fault. Was brewing kombucha, and left it out in the bottles a little too long before burping.
Me standing there, kombucha and peach slices pulverized against the cap, kombucha leaving a large mark on the ceiling it all happened so fast, glad I was wearing my glasses.
No injuries except my pride, but it did take some hours to clean up.
I wouldn't do it in a thermos, but I guess those are mostly accidents?
It was bramble beer for me. Put a load of lovely ripe brambles in a batch of homebrew beer, one of the little pithy bits on the inside wedged up against the bottom of the airlock, and overnight the pressure built up enough to pop the cork out and spray the ceiling with brambly splats and beer.
Tasted okay though.
My mate brewed his bramble beer by putting his brambles through a juicer and only adding the juice and pulp, because he's cleverer than me and has a certain amount of foresight.
I hate life a little bit more every time I stumble upon stories like this. Anything and everything can happen to you, suddenly, without warning, without planning, not necessarily because of any obvious fault of your own. "Oh, you thought you already had enough problems and worries as it is? Well, now you are blind in one eye, forever, because you wanted to keep your coffee warmer for a little longer."
The one without the relieve valve is nicer to use because it's (much) easier to clean. Source: I've cleaned these things pretty much every weekday for the last 2 or 3 years.
So who decided to cut costs by "simplifying" the lid design? A case of Chesterton's fence perhaps?
My partner has one of these so just checked it. It does have the pressure relief feature, but it turns out it's also missing all the seals anyway so never would have been a problem!
Any container designed to hold hot things should have a pressure release valve.
It can be seals that buckle before the lid. It can be a tiny hole with a soft rubber stopper. It can be one of many things that cost a couple of cents extra and a bit more engineering and testing effort.
The cheapest disposable coffee cups I've used have a tiny hole for the express purpose of not pressurizing and spilling hot liquid everywhere.
There's a lot of conversation in the comments about "was there was an expectation that the pressure release valve would be there" There absolutely is a safety expectation that a sealed container of hot food is designed with a pressure release system.
BTW the fermented food thing is a misdirection. The pressure release system should have released pressure way before it even reached ballistic territory.
My steam cleaner recently was recalled and sent me a new cap with a built-in pressure-locking valve. People were opening it too early and getting burns. Heat and pressure can be very dangerous.
Initially assumed it was due to some sort of contamination or production defect.
Turns out people leave perishable and fermenting foods in the thermos, and after a while when opened, the pressure lifts the lid of the thermos at quasi-unimaginable speeds, striking the curiously unsuspecting humans straight in the face, with some instances causing permanent damage to vision.
Coffee is hot, but a pressure release system is cool too..
I really hope we get a video out of this to see how bad it actually is and how much "pressure" is needed for this.
> Incidents/Injuries: Thermos has received 27 reports of consumers who were struck by a stopper that forcefully ejected from these containers upon opening, including complaints of impact and laceration injuries requiring medical attention. Three consumers suffered permanent vision loss after being struck in the eye.
That's an awefully large amount of reports about this. I wonder what about the design makes it a rocket compared to what I would assume is a pretty standard design?
> The Stainless King™ 470ml Vacuum Insulated Food Jar is the ultimate day to day companion to keep your food at optimal temperatures. Keep fruit fresh and vegetables cool for up to 14 hours while you take on the day. For your favourite soups, pastas or stir fry, they’ll stay warm for up to 9 hours – ideal for taking last nights left overs. You can be sure that your food will be perfect for consumption at lunchtime after you pack it in the morning. The wide mouth makes it easy to fill and clean, and comes crowned with a stainless steel lid that doubles as a serving bowl. Plus, it comes with a handy stainless steel spoon that fits neatly into the lid compartment.
It's meant for storing food, for anyone who is confused why someone would be.
> I wonder what about the design makes it a rocket compared to what I would assume is a pretty standard design?
Injuries nonwithstanding, the quality of the seal means it was an exceptionally well designed item for the purpose of storing 99% water.
side note: there's a reason you get a visit from the FBI if you buy ten pressure cookers (e.g. if you find a great Black Friday deal and have a large family and plan Christmas gifts...)
I'm a little surprised it's a recall - is there some expectation that it should have pressure release? Can you not sell simpler products legally?
Yes, the article seems to be not detailed enough. They show the pictures, and it is evident what the pressure release valve is, but I agree that by this logic any container or any steel water bottle is dangerous. Maybe there is some other additional feature that makes it particularly dangerous compared to other models (like, the new seal keeps higher pressure, or the lid needs fewer rotations to disengage, etc.) that is not explained here and makes all the difference. Older models didn't even have a pressure relief valve, did they?
I guess the amount of rotation needed between “airtight seal gets broken” and “lid can come off” is fairly short for these thermos.
If the difference is, say, a full 360° turn, pressure will get relieved before the lid can come off.
See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48006887. Apparently, many bottles have discontinuities in the threading to allow for that.
> is there some expectation that it should have pressure release?
Scroll down in that article to the section with photographs of "recalled" and "not recalled" lids side by side.
Why is there an expectation that it should be a required feature?
Well for one, so it doesn’t get recalled after getting a reputation for making people blind
> Why is there an expectation that it should be a required feature?
What point are you trying to make here ?!?!
Given that it should be there, it is quite clearly a product feature on Thermos jars.
So, of many examples that cross my mind.... let's say you were a long-term user of Thermos products. There's your "expectation".
I assume it probably features in the product literature that comes in the box too.
> Given that it should be there
I've never seen a thermos-style container with a pressure relief in my life. However, I'm European, it appears that in the US (a country where you have to write disclaimers on microwaves that you shouldn't dry hamsters in them) common sense has been going down the toilet.
Frankly, I'm all for a bit of darwinism here. It's bewildering that there are people who think it's a good idea to open a thermos that has been fermenting for days if not weeks without a lot of caution!
Most lids you've ever used have pressure relief. It's not an extra part or valve or anything, it's just the simple geometry to ensure that the seal opens before the lid becomes mechanically free.
Thermos has only been producing flasks since 1904. There shouldn't be an expectation that they already have this on a checklist of things to watch out for in new designs. /s
One word for you .... context.
I said "given it should be there" because Thermos have just issued a recall notice where they openly admit liability and they openly state it should be there (see side by side photos in the recall).
I was never seeking to pass judgement on the factual element of whether "it should be there" in the pure definition of the term.
I was just saying "it should be there on THAT product because Thermos says so".
The whole point of Thermos is to keep things warm for a long time. That means pressure. It's a basic safety feature.
> The whole point of Thermos is to keep things warm for a long time. That means pressure.
That by far is not enough to forcefully yeet out the cap, probably not even if you take it to an Antarctic research base in -40 °C outdoor weather.
People forgetting about content that ferments however? Kaboom.
On a planet where fermentation exists, such as planet Earth, the only planet on which we, humans, reside and therefore where these containers are made and used, that means pressure.
Happy now?
Isn't the point of a thermos to put "perishable and fermenting foods" in it, like coffee or tea? Like this could totally have been me, like make a thermos-full of coffee one day, then forget about it only to come back to in some weeks just to open it and have one of my eyes blown off
good luck of anything fermenting after dousing with boiling water..
That sucks. I have both and the ones with the pressure relieve valve are a pain in the ass to clean. You have to pull out the rubber inner thingy, you can't get a towel inside the hole that thingy goes into, and in general the rubber thing gets lost easily. I wish Thermos would send me a few of those 8 million stoppers, I'll promise I won't be a dumbass with them :(
I too from the headline assumed it was some sort of chemical contamination during manufacturing.
But then I read the words "The malfunction is due to multiple models of containers missing a pressure relief function in the center of the stopper."
How non-existent does your quality assurance have to be in order to miss such a critical, obvious and easy to identify flaw ?
Looking at the published photographs, you don't even need training to identify that manufacturing defect. A five year old could spot the difference between "lid has a hole" and "lid does not have a hole".
I've never seen a thermos bottle with a relief valve. Not sure if all manufacturers in Europe have nonexistent QA or if it's just not a thing that's commonly needed since you can't heat the contents up in there anyway (it's not like an insulated water boiler, which does have a release valve). Never considered that someone might leave food in there long enough to build up explosive pressure. Feels a bit like saying a missing cat detector function in microwave ovens points at them having no quality control
I would assume that it was some cost optimization that led to the removal of the pressure relief.
There is a well known solution. Look at most PET bottles. The thread (mostly on the cap) is not continuous. That's for the pressure to relieve before the cap is off, and that could happen from a coke bottle or so to you.
You have to activate it manually?
Happened to me once. I was emptying one of my child’s thermoses in the bathroom when it suddenly "exploded" and sprayed the contents all over the bathroom walls. Quite a remarkable day :)
I didn't consider it a defect, though. I can hardly imagine cheap products adopting this solution.
I would have thought they could design the screwtop so that it would relase pressure before fully disengaging the lid from the flask.
That is what I was wondering. I would have thought it would need to be opened at eye level for the contents to hit the eye before being depressurised.
If it's a forceful opening and you're not holding the top tightly, then I imagine the top could launch upwards. I know from experience this can also happen if you put just a bit of boiling water in and seal it. The air expands under heat and will push the top out whilst you're unscrewing. A version of this top comes with a metal spoon & raised holder built in, providing some edges to hit you with and an extra projectile.
Nah I think most people would open it at waist level standing with the lid facing up (towards you face as you are looking down), and twisting to open.
I can totally see how that would fly straight up at your face.
Had this happen to me once, though totally my own fault. Was brewing kombucha, and left it out in the bottles a little too long before burping.
Me standing there, kombucha and peach slices pulverized against the cap, kombucha leaving a large mark on the ceiling it all happened so fast, glad I was wearing my glasses.
No injuries except my pride, but it did take some hours to clean up.
I wouldn't do it in a thermos, but I guess those are mostly accidents?
It was bramble beer for me. Put a load of lovely ripe brambles in a batch of homebrew beer, one of the little pithy bits on the inside wedged up against the bottom of the airlock, and overnight the pressure built up enough to pop the cork out and spray the ceiling with brambly splats and beer.
Tasted okay though.
My mate brewed his bramble beer by putting his brambles through a juicer and only adding the juice and pulp, because he's cleverer than me and has a certain amount of foresight.
I hate life a little bit more every time I stumble upon stories like this. Anything and everything can happen to you, suddenly, without warning, without planning, not necessarily because of any obvious fault of your own. "Oh, you thought you already had enough problems and worries as it is? Well, now you are blind in one eye, forever, because you wanted to keep your coffee warmer for a little longer."
This is wild.. It looks like they changed their lid to be a bit cheaper ?
Looking at the version that's not recalled, I would guess it costs more to make.
The one without the relieve valve is nicer to use because it's (much) easier to clean. Source: I've cleaned these things pretty much every weekday for the last 2 or 3 years.
The one that's not recalled has a pressure release button
So who decided to cut costs by "simplifying" the lid design? A case of Chesterton's fence perhaps?
My partner has one of these so just checked it. It does have the pressure relief feature, but it turns out it's also missing all the seals anyway so never would have been a problem!