Once I verify a home video product works as intended I remove its network connection and never connect it again. I then leave its static ip address configured and block any traffic from it on the off chance it’s ever connected again.
The sole exception is my PlayStation 5. I use apps on it for all streaming.
I also had to take this approach with my LG TV. The OS actually had its use for a while but Apple TV has become my driver. I no longer wish to consent to LG’s EULAs which are starting to look like the legal corpus of a small nation. I’m also not interested in their software updates. Internet privileges: revoked.
It’s concerning nonetheless as others are pointing out that in the current trajectory the TVs may soon refuse to display any content unless connected.
I’ve read reports of these devices turning on wifi and auto connecting to known public wifi networks. Seems we went from a generation of technologists dismissing Stallman as paranoid to one living in his nightmare and not being appropriately familiar with his work, issues of art vs artist aside.
Stallman has always been right. Hes a radical, but he was always been right. He is basically prescient with seeing how private software would be used. He was just so early that people thought he was a crazy radical, but now he seems to be stricken with a case of being Cassandra.
There hasn't been open public wifi networks near where I live for over a decade. It also seems increasingly rare for businesses to have them (they usually have an SSID and password posted somewhere). I don't think this is a thing.
But here's where it might go.
Verizon and other cell companies bundle streaming apps with their plans. It's really not a far leap for them to bundle a TV as well. Especially if TVs get really expensive due to whatever factors - get a 120" TV for just $30 extra on your bill over the next 5 years. And Verizon could contract with an OEM to make a Verizon-specific model, and put a 5G modem in it, and lock it to Verizon service. Verizon's just an example here, AT&T, T-Mobile could do the same.
Business idea: a signal-jamming cover for your 65-inch TV.
It looks like shit, is difficult to install, and costs an arm and a leg, but at least it prevents egregious privacy violations from your average chaebol or CCP-intervened corporation!
Why not just change your wifi password so that the TV can't connect again (after you've got your OTAs but I guess you could have loaded them on a USB stick to flash instead of wifi)
Who cares? Companies are using your need to have the latest and greatest against you. It's overt manipulation. I'd rather watch an old CRT or nothing at all than allow some company to forcefully show me ads.
> Companies are using your need to have the latest and greatest against you
This is a false dichotomy.
My love of cinema drives me to have certain features in my TV: 4k, OLED, HDR. My hatred of ads drives to me buy certain products to use my with TV: Apple TV.
You don't really get a lot of options anymore. When people around don't really care and just buy this junk because it's cheap, and they "need" a new TV ever three to four years, for some reason, then you get priced out of the market pretty quickly. Even if you look for TV, and yes I want a TV, not a monitor, without all this junk, there's not really any options available locally anymore. I believe my only option is the Thompson Easy TV, which is great, if I needed a 43" TV or lower.
Apparently I can attempt to import one from Romania, but that seems fairly complicated. Even sites that recommend dumb TVs just recommend SmartTVs that works well as a dumb TV.
It's ridiculous that going to a Target/Bestbuy/etc you cannot find any non-smart TVs generally. I have had several older models of non-smart tvs that suddenly stop working after a few years. It's disgusting
It's either because the non-ad-driven tvs cost more, resulting in too few sales to sustain (because no lifetime revenue from data sales) or the lifetime revenue from data sales is so profitable that companies take the risk on being undercut by a market entrant that will sell dumb tvs.
My guess is that the vast majority of people will trade data for a cheaper price point every time (my wife is certainly one of these people), so the market just can't support the volume of sales necessary to make the price point of dumb tvs competitive.
A smart TV just means one that can show you advertising and hoover up personal data. This is additional revenue. What company would sell you anything else?
We don't really have physical access to it - in the sense that on your desktop computer you can boot off a usb drive and reinstall the OS. There is no way you can boot your TV off external media. So you have to hack the existing OS while running it.
The way rooting working on a TV is that you run some javascript in the TV browser that targets some vulnerability in the browser/OS to run some code that then gives you a way in. Or if it has a USB port (to watch videos off a usb drive), you play a specifically crafted video that targets some vulnerability in the media players, to again install some program that then lets you do more serious changes to the OS.
The thing stopped being so needy when I neutered its internet access. Maybe it’s still exfiltrating data but at least it has stopped making me anxious that I may need to consult a civil rights lawyer every time I saw their EULA.
The sim card in a kindle was a global connect-to-any-network SIM card. Your Kindle was always online and ready to download more books no matter where you were in the world. It was legit actually useful and valuable to customers.
What's Amazon gonna do with a Kindle with an embedded SIM? Spy on the books you read? They already know that shit!
I think you're confused. Kindles need to be connected to the Internet so you can purchase and read books on them. The SIM card removed friction from the process e.g. buying books while on vacation or at the airport or whatever.
They didn't put SIM cards in there to spy on you. They were always an opt-in (at additional cost) option for a better user experience.
Pro tip for devices that refuse to simply remove working WiFi credentials (cough Samsung), is to connect them to a different “dummy” WiFi and then simply turn that off.
I’ve yet to see a device that caches more than one set of credentials. But I suppose it’s only a matter of time.
Then we shall only ever connect to a throwaway wifi ssid created for the sole purpose of setting up that TV and deleted promptly afterwards.
Samsung will then use NFC / QuickShare transient hotspot to helpfully sync all useful info from your Samsung phone nearby.
Then we block that IP address or MAC ID from router side.
Then smart TVs will switch to open mesh networks hosted by unsuspecting ISP customer boxes in neighborhood.
And maybe even starlink.
=====
Maybe wifi standard should stop using static passwords and create a device specific hash to let it connect. Wifi admin should get to approve each device connection request.
With the widespread move to OLED across the TV and monitor manufacturers, this might not be the case for much longer. They look and perform great, but are ultimately a consumable product.
Copy that. I have a 2007 Kuro Elite 50" Plasma whose picture is still so beautiful after 19 years it's almost 3D. Not.One.Repair/Problem/EVER. I dread ever having to buy a new TV.
I have a TCL so maybe it's different, but did your TVs require connection to set up?
The TCL can still act as a HDMI switch with CEC, and that can be labeled through the remote if you want, so there was never any need to connect to a network.
My parents got a new smart TV; if you don't give it wifi access it will nag repeatedly about it. Very annoying, and it only takes one time for it to go "Yay! I'll store these forever now."
(It will also wheedle you to re-enable the AI features and telemetry if you turn those off. Which you do like eight levels of confusingly and scarily named submenus.)
The best course of action here seems to return the TV. Any TV that cannot be permanently switched to HDMI input without nags is unfit for purpose and should be rejected.
This is outrageous and we need to stand up against it. You're merely avoiding the danger of uber-enshittification of hardware (now once software is enshittified enough), but this will crawl further and further. Meanwhile rating companies are lowering ratings of firms that DO NOT have 'subscription model' in their products, that's why we're intended to pay for enabling heating in car seats from now on.
"But while BMW ultimately backed down over heated seats, the company still believes in the features-as-a-service model, and will continue to offer post-purchase upgrades through its ConnectedDrive platform. "
I drive a Cupra (a Spanish brand, a spinoff of SEAT, owned by Volkswagen) and when I was driving my car out of the dealership I had to tell the salesman I was not interested in signing up for the free app they were trying to foist me. He was dumbfounded. The model was selling like hotcakes yet I was the first customer that had outright refused to sign up for their shitty app. They pulled off the inevitable switcheroo, it now costs a monthly fee and I don’t want to think about what insidious things they can do with it.
Chances are the dealer and manufacturer can still get telemetry data through the cellular modem built into the car. You will need to remove it to be reasonably sure that data isn't extracted.
The issue is that data is also shared with third parties, such as insurance companies and possibly the government. I could not, in good conscience, drive a car that spies on me and can be effectively controlled remotely.
And then they will complain that Chinese company are simply crushing them... As a European, I have been buying only Asian cars for ages as I don't want to play their "add options" game, and I think that more and more people are tired of that.
The enshittification and lack of market understanding (or care) of the major European car brands is a topic by itself. They may be rightfully complaining right now but a lot of their woes are self inflicted.
Because it would be unpopular, not because it can't be done.
Rest assured, when the time is right and the average consumer complacent enough, they will require a subscription. Yes, I can see the future. Call me an Oracle. No, not that Oracle.
Over the past many decades, we're seeing standards slip and slip as our standards for goods are constantly challenged. What was unthinkable just 10 years ago is now business as usual.
If you told someone in 2005 they would have to upload their ID and scan their face to use a chat application, they would call you crazy. If you told someone in 2015 that Google Glass was gonna come back and this time people would like being recorded and would willingly give up their camera feed, they would think you're insane.
The TV manufacturers know they can get a guaranteed $30-50/year spliff out of the platform vendors per unit for allowing the shitware in the first place and that these TVs will last long enough to get them a nice several hundred dollar subsidy on the TV.
I’m afraid there’s not going to be a great affordable path out of this hypersubsidized trap we’ve set the market into.
Consumers just keep putting up with it. TVs are not a necessity; it's not like electric bills or healthcare. There are more ways to consume content than ever before, and more content available than ever before. Not owning a TV in the 80s or 90s was something of a big deal. Now, it couldn't matter less. But people are still putting up with whatever crap manufacturers are putting out. It should be easy to vote with wallet (even that means simply not purchasing a TV) but consumers just keep buying this crap.
What do you do with this living space without a TV? Serious question from someone who grew up with a TV companion. I imagine this is what the current generation feels when thinking about smartphones.
>What do you do with this living space without a TV?
My main social space is my front porch, which is a semi-enclosed dogrun with ample seating (no TV). My "living room" doesn't have a couch, which naturally forces you towards seating (aforementioned outside). There is a small table, with two chairs only; bookshelves, artwork, and projectspace mostly for standing room only.
Not really much of a socialite, but I really don't like TVs (nor people in my small space).
>current generation feels ... about smartphones
I don't use those, either. Hate that everything is now an app (including parking).
While I sadly have to have a phone for some things (Okta, for example, for work) and in general for phone calls / texting, I try to install as few apps as possible. If there's a web interface and I don't need the info with me, I'll use the web interface.
We curl up on the couch and look at our phones. ;)
Actually we've made an effort to have people over more now, and we gather around the coffee table to chat. And even when we don't have people over, we're more likely to talk and be social.
Ughh.. I recently turned on my 1000EUR+ LG Oled TV to find that it had automatically installed a Copilot app.. And keeps doing it every few days.
Is there any smart TV that I can actually just use a TV how I want? Or am I reduced to buying an Apple TV device and unplugging the TV from the internet entirely ?
Right, never give a TV internet access now. That's where we are.
This means they can't surveil, brick, or change your hardware after you bought it.
So yes, then add whatever dongles to provide content. If the dongle turns bad (evil), chuck it and get a different kind. You preserve your privacy, hardware ownership rights, and freedom to choose.
> This means they can't surveil, brick, or change your hardware after you bought it.
They can however continuously display 'NO NETWORK' popups until you give the device the access it wants. Of course, only after it's been active a while and the return window is closed.
I'll believe it when I see it. The numbers simply don't pencil out. Streaming ads over cellular networks is going to be insanely expensive at rates that IOT/esim providers are currently offering. Not to mention that most people would connect to wifi anyways so they can watch neflix or whatever without a second device. If a 5G module costs $25 but only 10% of people actually never connect to wifi, you're basically paying $250 just to get that incremental customer connected.
Not for ads, but maybe the numbers work out if you're selling intel. How much is a household's watching habits worth on the market? How about keyword mentions in the room?
Protection of one's attention is our generation's luxury product.
Whether it's the TV hardware or the streaming service in your house, your standard of living is now judged by whether you pay extra for the ad-free tier.
Apple tends to skew luxury purchase, so it makes sense it hasn't been riddled with adware yet. The Apple logo is a status symbol that you're not being bombarded with ads in every corner of underutilized screen real-estate.
If a car is equipped with 'eCall' from the factory in the EU a missing modem is seen as a safety defect and fails the yearly inspection which is required for road use.
One workaround is to buy a computer monitor and use that instead. Most of those are still pretty dumb HDMI or USB terminals that you can plug any signal source into. They don't come in huge sizes like TVs (although search "digital signage" for some options), and you'll need a dedicated sound speaker system, but this route could be an option.
> Is there any smart TV that I can actually just use a TV how I want?
I’ve heard that large computer monitors and TVs intended to be used as displays can be used without connecting them to a network.
> Or am I reduced to buying an Apple TV device and unplugging the TV from the internet entirely ?
An Apple TV is a good choice even otherwise. I’ve never seen a smoother and quicker interface on a native Smart TV (granted that I’ve only seen Android and webOS). I use my Apple TV as the only network connected device while my TV is not connected to any network ever. Once in a while, I update the TV’s firmware by downloading it to a thumb drive and plugging that into the USB port of the TV.
Better yet, use a Linux HTPC. The Apple TV box is comically restricted. For example, because there is no web browser, there is no straightforward way to watch YouTube ad-free on it.
The default Google launcher is a disgusting mess. But since it is an Android, you do not have to use it and can use one of the many ad free ones. I use Projectivy
I don't have a reference, but I remember reading that some Samsung TVs require internet access to get past initial setup and allow access to HDMI. So we might already be here..
No such device exists, though. All smart TVs are as user hostile as manufacturers believe they can get away with. If they could make them worse for the user, they would. They're just pushing the boundaries as far as they can.
What happens when they move from default dns to ech with pinned dns servers? I was reading about ech a bit yesterday so I could keep up with apps trying to circumvent dns filtering on my kids' devices.
Usually I require a root cert so devices can have their traffic inspected or be isolated into an unsafe network where most nonessential traffic is blocked by default. I suppose letting an iot device connect will become more risky in the future when I can't control the dns resolver or can't confidently block requests through dns alone.
IF its an android, connect to it via ADB and disable all the BS apps, even launcher. I am using projectivity launcher on mine, even has child lock which we really need. No ads or popups etc at all. YouTube is all we watch on this TV anyway, and retro gaming and movies.
I also have Nvidia Shield connected to it, that one is setup the same way.
It is totally bonkers. For long time the low tech recommendation (without setting rules on router/firewall) was to never connect TV to network, and use cheap TV box, to use streaming services.
And then community's favorite - TiVo - started to show their own ads. Everything based on Android TV is also hit or miss. And might get enshitified with an update at any time. I think NVidia Shield is the only device other than AppleTV that works as expected. Only it didn't have an hardware upgrade in 5+ years.
It's unfortunate that the 2020s era Apple is so big/rich, in a way. Old Apple used to dabble in all sorts of niches, but now they need to sell 10M units/year to move the needle. So they'll never just make a TV now.
I bought a Sony Android TV a few years back which has yet to be enshitified - doesn't shove ads or shovelware down my throat, acts like a TV. It's a model made for the Japanese market though and they may have incentives to play nice with domestic customers.
I love my Hisense TV. It was the best bang for my bucks when I bought it. Nice and big, nice and bright and 4k. I'm not a pixel peeper by any stretch of the imagination, so I'm not too fussed about having the best of the best in my living room. I've had it so far for about 5 years, and I might keep it for much longer.
That TV has not whiffed a single packet over it's network interface, and it never will. I've learnt my lesson with smart previous smart tv's (looking at you Samsung), and I'm more than happy to run outdated firmware on my TV. If it works it works.
If I buy a new tv that needs internet to get working, or the shipped firmware is buggy, then I'll take it back to the store as it's not working. Simple as.
IMO when ads have to be force-fed to consumers means the ad industry has already jumped the shark. Advertising is dominated by a few giants, trying to push a niche of even more ads becomes a waste of resources for always diminishing returns.
Yet advertisers still believe more ads always mean more sales.
Just wait until these ad spaces are used for political propaganda/messages from the leaders. The unskippable stuff already implements the toolkit for further escalation.
Here could some European company that already makes tv to step in and create something good, with no ads, and even better if they promise to open the sourcecode, bootloader etc... Something like Philips for example. But I guess they are too busy making lightbulbs to notice that they could fill that gap on the TV market space.
Philips has made "smart" TVs for years, including OLEDs, and they're more or less Android TVs like most other manufacturers. So I wouldn't hold your breath for them.
We might watch it “live”, but it’s through a TiVo, and not the tuner in the TV. Usually, though, we start the few scheduled shows we watch 30-60m late to be able to skip commercials.
Not the person you were responding to but I work at a TV station here in the US. What kind of shows do you like? My husband and I are getting into "The Rise and Fall of Reggie Dinkins" if you want a new show. If new episodes of a long running show is fine, I still relax to Jeopardy when I can. If you don't stream anything, you can usually still find golf on the weekends which we use for our cats. :)
More and more I think that advertising should just be banned. People will tell me it's useful. I don't believe it. But even if it were true, it's not worth it. Sorry, advertisers, you abused it horribly, you ruined it for everyone.
Fire Stick/Fire TV is a pretty dreadful experience as it is. Video ads on the home screen, but at least you can currently install custom apps. No way to replace the home screen.
I have a rooted LG WebOS TV. It's really nice. I can ssh into it. It's on a dedicated VLAN which has all LG domains and IP firewalled off. It can connect to Youtube, using a version of the Youtube app with integrated adblocker and sponsorblock. It's absolute superb.
Do you have any recommended links for such a setup? I don’t connect my TV to the network and use it with an Apple TV. But I’m interested to know more on this.
If not, you can try and find one on Ebay or local classifieds that is. That's the hardest part.
Then you setup a VLAN (I use OpenWRT, which has great support for this) and some firewall rules that forbid all traffic that isn't port 80 or 443. Then you create a dnsmasq blacklist for all the LG domains (good list is [1]).
Why you would want your TV Manufacturer to control the experience at this point I have no idea. 5-6 years ago, we were a Roku only household. Now we are Apple TV all the way and haven’t looked back.
The other day I was at a spa, they had a TV in the background showing a channel with relaxing images, but after 5 minutes ads started playing.I don't think the spa staff even knew about it. we're fucked
Reminds me of someone who tweeted at YouTube about an experience trying to perform CPR and the CPR video on YouTube got interrupted by an unskippable ad
If someone was offering you a sweet but in exchange they punched you in the face, you'd probably question whether the sweet was really worth it. Unless, of course, you're addicted to the sweets.
Time to kick the addiction. Seek out ways to spend your time that are good for you and/or others.
It's not sweets and it's not an addiction, not everything on TV is for mindless consumption. The viewer is not who's at fault here. The right mindset is not "accept their terms or give up", it's "make your voice heard and try to make the manufacturers change their practices".
i am never buying another smart tv again. we all should vote with our wallet, but alas — such is life.
i will be replacing my existing (3 year old tv) when its time with a pc monitor and yes, i will go down in size. i’ve found that really large tbs aren’t really adding that much and dominate your house the minute you walk in.
At 100" the packaging, shipping from china, the delivery, etc. add have to be so much more than $1k.
I bought a 100" TV with setup and it was only $1600. I don't know how they make money on that with all the logistics required. Two people for delivery, two different people for the wall hanging, all the materials for the packaging, and that is just to get it to my house.
Shipping from China to a US coastal warehouse is probably modestly under $200, including packaging, assuming it's shipped in a 40" container. Possibly less if there's other cargo that can be used to fill the remaining space.
I suspect the domestic costs are really dependent on volume (like, can you ship a container of 45 TVs to a warehouse near NYC or do you have to ship each unit individually) and I don't feel confident estimating that side of it.
You can buy a $5k TV and its startup time, auto-play adware at the Home Screen, constant OS popup notification BS, etc are almost universal.
You can't buy your way out of scammy experiences anymore because the market has figured out the people most able to afford buying their way out of it are the highest value ad/scam targets.
Hisense has never operated at the top end of the spectrum. They can sell these TVs for $1000 because they're buying the cheapest panels that the actual high-end TVs aren't using.
It's amazing how cheap Hisense TVs are, but the two we got are developing really bad white spots just outside the warranty period. You get what you pay for I guess.
Depends on your definition of ”ads”. As someone deep in the apple ecosystem without a subscription to Music or Apple TV I get regular full screen promotions/ads to subscribe when all I want to do is listen or watch my bought content.
I'm not so sure this is really a free market equilibrium. There are two effects which explain the prevalence of ads even if consumers are willing to pay more for ad-free products:
- Imperfect information, aka Market for Lemons: It can be hard to find out how prevalent ads will be when buying a product. Consumers often make a purchasing decision without knowledge about ads.
- Changing terms after lock-in, aka Enshittification: Manufacturers (like Hisense here) can add advertising to products after consumers have already bought them. Initially, consumers have negotiation power since they can freely choose a product, but later they are locked in and cannot easily react to the manufacturer changing the product to their detriment.
Once I verify a home video product works as intended I remove its network connection and never connect it again. I then leave its static ip address configured and block any traffic from it on the off chance it’s ever connected again.
The sole exception is my PlayStation 5. I use apps on it for all streaming.
I also had to take this approach with my LG TV. The OS actually had its use for a while but Apple TV has become my driver. I no longer wish to consent to LG’s EULAs which are starting to look like the legal corpus of a small nation. I’m also not interested in their software updates. Internet privileges: revoked.
It’s concerning nonetheless as others are pointing out that in the current trajectory the TVs may soon refuse to display any content unless connected.
I’ve read reports of these devices turning on wifi and auto connecting to known public wifi networks. Seems we went from a generation of technologists dismissing Stallman as paranoid to one living in his nightmare and not being appropriately familiar with his work, issues of art vs artist aside.
Stallman has always been right. Hes a radical, but he was always been right. He is basically prescient with seeing how private software would be used. He was just so early that people thought he was a crazy radical, but now he seems to be stricken with a case of being Cassandra.
There hasn't been open public wifi networks near where I live for over a decade. It also seems increasingly rare for businesses to have them (they usually have an SSID and password posted somewhere). I don't think this is a thing.
But here's where it might go.
Verizon and other cell companies bundle streaming apps with their plans. It's really not a far leap for them to bundle a TV as well. Especially if TVs get really expensive due to whatever factors - get a 120" TV for just $30 extra on your bill over the next 5 years. And Verizon could contract with an OEM to make a Verizon-specific model, and put a 5G modem in it, and lock it to Verizon service. Verizon's just an example here, AT&T, T-Mobile could do the same.
Business idea: a signal-jamming cover for your 65-inch TV.
It looks like shit, is difficult to install, and costs an arm and a leg, but at least it prevents egregious privacy violations from your average chaebol or CCP-intervened corporation!
Why not just change your wifi password so that the TV can't connect again (after you've got your OTAs but I guess you could have loaded them on a USB stick to flash instead of wifi)
How would you look at the panel, then? Do you think it is impenetrable?
I'd doubt that any such coating would be good for viewing quality.
> How would you look at the panel, then?
You only view your TV from inside the Faraday cage, of course.
Living bunker-style in a SCIF just for TV? Nah!
Don't forget your car. Definitely can't trust that without airgapping it.
I'm using a nukkular subterrene. No worries there.
It's simple: not buying them is the way. There is enough competition to just buy a screen that will not do that.
There is not a ton of competition in the OLED TV space
Who cares? Companies are using your need to have the latest and greatest against you. It's overt manipulation. I'd rather watch an old CRT or nothing at all than allow some company to forcefully show me ads.
> Companies are using your need to have the latest and greatest against you
This is a false dichotomy.
My love of cinema drives me to have certain features in my TV: 4k, OLED, HDR. My hatred of ads drives to me buy certain products to use my with TV: Apple TV.
You don't really get a lot of options anymore. When people around don't really care and just buy this junk because it's cheap, and they "need" a new TV ever three to four years, for some reason, then you get priced out of the market pretty quickly. Even if you look for TV, and yes I want a TV, not a monitor, without all this junk, there's not really any options available locally anymore. I believe my only option is the Thompson Easy TV, which is great, if I needed a 43" TV or lower.
Apparently I can attempt to import one from Romania, but that seems fairly complicated. Even sites that recommend dumb TVs just recommend SmartTVs that works well as a dumb TV.
fewer competitors every year...Sony gave up as well :/
It's ridiculous that going to a Target/Bestbuy/etc you cannot find any non-smart TVs generally. I have had several older models of non-smart tvs that suddenly stop working after a few years. It's disgusting
It's either because the non-ad-driven tvs cost more, resulting in too few sales to sustain (because no lifetime revenue from data sales) or the lifetime revenue from data sales is so profitable that companies take the risk on being undercut by a market entrant that will sell dumb tvs.
My guess is that the vast majority of people will trade data for a cheaper price point every time (my wife is certainly one of these people), so the market just can't support the volume of sales necessary to make the price point of dumb tvs competitive.
A smart TV just means one that can show you advertising and hoover up personal data. This is additional revenue. What company would sell you anything else?
LG TVs may be rooted. You probably can also run a pi-hole sort of thing to block any traffic except whitelisted domains.
Not that I've done it, I don't get enough value out of it to justify the hassle or the privacy intrusion.
According to Root My TV, it seems like all methods of rooting recent LG TVs have been patched.
[1] https://rootmy.tv/
You mean there is no way to break it even though you have physical access to it? How is that possible?
We don't really have physical access to it - in the sense that on your desktop computer you can boot off a usb drive and reinstall the OS. There is no way you can boot your TV off external media. So you have to hack the existing OS while running it.
The way rooting working on a TV is that you run some javascript in the TV browser that targets some vulnerability in the browser/OS to run some code that then gives you a way in. Or if it has a USB port (to watch videos off a usb drive), you play a specifically crafted video that targets some vulnerability in the media players, to again install some program that then lets you do more serious changes to the OS.
Over time, LG fixes these vulnerabilities.
The thing stopped being so needy when I neutered its internet access. Maybe it’s still exfiltrating data but at least it has stopped making me anxious that I may need to consult a civil rights lawyer every time I saw their EULA.
They patched that out many moons ago. If you havent updated in a few years you might have a shot, but most people cannot.
Even some cheap Kindles came with a SIM card.
I expect this to happen if enough people block ads on TVs. (They'll probably promote it as a "backup connection" or something.)
The sim card in a kindle was a global connect-to-any-network SIM card. Your Kindle was always online and ready to download more books no matter where you were in the world. It was legit actually useful and valuable to customers.
What's Amazon gonna do with a Kindle with an embedded SIM? Spy on the books you read? They already know that shit!
The point is that a similarly cheap always-on SIM in a TV can be used to serve ads if blocking them at the network level becomes common.
I think you're confused. Kindles need to be connected to the Internet so you can purchase and read books on them. The SIM card removed friction from the process e.g. buying books while on vacation or at the airport or whatever.
They didn't put SIM cards in there to spy on you. They were always an opt-in (at additional cost) option for a better user experience.
> They didn't put SIM cards in there to spy on you.
I'm sure Amazon tracked all sorts of activity on those, but that's not the point.
It would be quite trivial to add them to TVs to avoid ad blocking and track behavior when wifi isn't available.
Pro tip for devices that refuse to simply remove working WiFi credentials (cough Samsung), is to connect them to a different “dummy” WiFi and then simply turn that off.
I’ve yet to see a device that caches more than one set of credentials. But I suppose it’s only a matter of time.
Cat and mouse.
Then we shall only ever connect to a throwaway wifi ssid created for the sole purpose of setting up that TV and deleted promptly afterwards.
Samsung will then use NFC / QuickShare transient hotspot to helpfully sync all useful info from your Samsung phone nearby.
Then we block that IP address or MAC ID from router side.
Then smart TVs will switch to open mesh networks hosted by unsuspecting ISP customer boxes in neighborhood.
And maybe even starlink.
=====
Maybe wifi standard should stop using static passwords and create a device specific hash to let it connect. Wifi admin should get to approve each device connection request.
I'm going to convert my living room into a Faraday cage, only bringing in pre downloaded content via hard drive. That should solve this problem.
Although I'm not sure my family will be too happy.
Why not change your wifi password? Or just set up a temporary guest one and delete it?
TV's last a long time. Get one with a bypass today and you can be set for decades.
With the widespread move to OLED across the TV and monitor manufacturers, this might not be the case for much longer. They look and perform great, but are ultimately a consumable product.
I have had my Sharp 65" TV since 2012. It works great, has multiple HDMI ports and a USB port, but I am worried that one day I will need a new TV.
Copy that. I have a 2007 Kuro Elite 50" Plasma whose picture is still so beautiful after 19 years it's almost 3D. Not.One.Repair/Problem/EVER. I dread ever having to buy a new TV.
I have a TCL so maybe it's different, but did your TVs require connection to set up?
The TCL can still act as a HDMI switch with CEC, and that can be labeled through the remote if you want, so there was never any need to connect to a network.
> Pro tip for devices that refuse to simply remove working WiFi credentials
Is there examples of such devices? AFAIK every smart TV can be switched to HDMI input without being ever connected to the Internet.
My parents got a new smart TV; if you don't give it wifi access it will nag repeatedly about it. Very annoying, and it only takes one time for it to go "Yay! I'll store these forever now."
(It will also wheedle you to re-enable the AI features and telemetry if you turn those off. Which you do like eight levels of confusingly and scarily named submenus.)
Tell your parents that with this stuff enabled, it's giving another way for scammers to steal their data to use against them.
I.e. We're from the internet company. Really, you are? Yes, didn't you watch XYZ on Netflix last night? Oh, right, ok, here's my password.
The best course of action here seems to return the TV. Any TV that cannot be permanently switched to HDMI input without nags is unfit for purpose and should be rejected.
You can also open up the back and remove the antenna connection.
This is outrageous and we need to stand up against it. You're merely avoiding the danger of uber-enshittification of hardware (now once software is enshittified enough), but this will crawl further and further. Meanwhile rating companies are lowering ratings of firms that DO NOT have 'subscription model' in their products, that's why we're intended to pay for enabling heating in car seats from now on.
My car has heated and ventilated seats. These do not require a subscription.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/bmw-commits-to-subscriptions-e...
"But while BMW ultimately backed down over heated seats, the company still believes in the features-as-a-service model, and will continue to offer post-purchase upgrades through its ConnectedDrive platform. "
I drive a Cupra (a Spanish brand, a spinoff of SEAT, owned by Volkswagen) and when I was driving my car out of the dealership I had to tell the salesman I was not interested in signing up for the free app they were trying to foist me. He was dumbfounded. The model was selling like hotcakes yet I was the first customer that had outright refused to sign up for their shitty app. They pulled off the inevitable switcheroo, it now costs a monthly fee and I don’t want to think about what insidious things they can do with it.
Chances are the dealer and manufacturer can still get telemetry data through the cellular modem built into the car. You will need to remove it to be reasonably sure that data isn't extracted.
>Chances are the dealer and manufacturer can still get telemetry data through the cellular modem built into the car.
Exactly why I have a car without a cellular modem. They're getting quite rare, though, and I imagine will soon be impossible.
I believe you're required to have it due to EU regulation for "automated 112 calling"
I know they are because they called me for service at the 10k km mark, but at least they’re not charging me for the pleasure.
The issue is that data is also shared with third parties, such as insurance companies and possibly the government. I could not, in good conscience, drive a car that spies on me and can be effectively controlled remotely.
And then they will complain that Chinese company are simply crushing them... As a European, I have been buying only Asian cars for ages as I don't want to play their "add options" game, and I think that more and more people are tired of that.
The enshittification and lack of market understanding (or care) of the major European car brands is a topic by itself. They may be rightfully complaining right now but a lot of their woes are self inflicted.
Because it would be unpopular, not because it can't be done.
Rest assured, when the time is right and the average consumer complacent enough, they will require a subscription. Yes, I can see the future. Call me an Oracle. No, not that Oracle.
Over the past many decades, we're seeing standards slip and slip as our standards for goods are constantly challenged. What was unthinkable just 10 years ago is now business as usual.
If you told someone in 2005 they would have to upload their ID and scan their face to use a chat application, they would call you crazy. If you told someone in 2015 that Google Glass was gonna come back and this time people would like being recorded and would willingly give up their camera feed, they would think you're insane.
My car’s seats are warmed by my butt. They’re very happy and comfortable and I didn’t have to pay a dime.
For now
The TV manufacturers know they can get a guaranteed $30-50/year spliff out of the platform vendors per unit for allowing the shitware in the first place and that these TVs will last long enough to get them a nice several hundred dollar subsidy on the TV.
I’m afraid there’s not going to be a great affordable path out of this hypersubsidized trap we’ve set the market into.
Consumers just keep putting up with it. TVs are not a necessity; it's not like electric bills or healthcare. There are more ways to consume content than ever before, and more content available than ever before. Not owning a TV in the 80s or 90s was something of a big deal. Now, it couldn't matter less. But people are still putting up with whatever crap manufacturers are putting out. It should be easy to vote with wallet (even that means simply not purchasing a TV) but consumers just keep buying this crap.
Searching for "commercial display" will get you some dumb TVs. They tend to cost 2x, but you get what you pay for.
We just gave away our 55" Hisense to our friend. I hope she doesn't think it means we hate her now. ;)
(Side note: not having a TV in the living space allowed us to freely design it to be a living space.)
What do you do with this living space without a TV? Serious question from someone who grew up with a TV companion. I imagine this is what the current generation feels when thinking about smartphones.
>What do you do with this living space without a TV?
My main social space is my front porch, which is a semi-enclosed dogrun with ample seating (no TV). My "living room" doesn't have a couch, which naturally forces you towards seating (aforementioned outside). There is a small table, with two chairs only; bookshelves, artwork, and projectspace mostly for standing room only.
Not really much of a socialite, but I really don't like TVs (nor people in my small space).
>current generation feels ... about smartphones
I don't use those, either. Hate that everything is now an app (including parking).
old_man_yells_at_clouds.gif (early forties)
While I sadly have to have a phone for some things (Okta, for example, for work) and in general for phone calls / texting, I try to install as few apps as possible. If there's a web interface and I don't need the info with me, I'll use the web interface.
We curl up on the couch and look at our phones. ;)
Actually we've made an effort to have people over more now, and we gather around the coffee table to chat. And even when we don't have people over, we're more likely to talk and be social.
Ughh.. I recently turned on my 1000EUR+ LG Oled TV to find that it had automatically installed a Copilot app.. And keeps doing it every few days.
Is there any smart TV that I can actually just use a TV how I want? Or am I reduced to buying an Apple TV device and unplugging the TV from the internet entirely ?
Right, never give a TV internet access now. That's where we are.
This means they can't surveil, brick, or change your hardware after you bought it.
So yes, then add whatever dongles to provide content. If the dongle turns bad (evil), chuck it and get a different kind. You preserve your privacy, hardware ownership rights, and freedom to choose.
> This means they can't surveil, brick, or change your hardware after you bought it.
They can however continuously display 'NO NETWORK' popups until you give the device the access it wants. Of course, only after it's been active a while and the return window is closed.
One of the main aims of 5G rollout was for the eventual inclusion of sims in these devices
For 5G enabled devices the medicine is to cut the antenna off
I'll believe it when I see it. The numbers simply don't pencil out. Streaming ads over cellular networks is going to be insanely expensive at rates that IOT/esim providers are currently offering. Not to mention that most people would connect to wifi anyways so they can watch neflix or whatever without a second device. If a 5G module costs $25 but only 10% of people actually never connect to wifi, you're basically paying $250 just to get that incremental customer connected.
Not for ads, but maybe the numbers work out if you're selling intel. How much is a household's watching habits worth on the market? How about keyword mentions in the room?
Protection of one's attention is our generation's luxury product.
Whether it's the TV hardware or the streaming service in your house, your standard of living is now judged by whether you pay extra for the ad-free tier.
Apple tends to skew luxury purchase, so it makes sense it hasn't been riddled with adware yet. The Apple logo is a status symbol that you're not being bombarded with ads in every corner of underutilized screen real-estate.
> an Apple TV device and unplugging the TV from the internet entirely
Had this setup on different tvs for 10+ years, can confirm it is excellent.
I guess it's a matter of time until TVs include GSM modem for ads and DRM.
Cars already do, and the solution is to remove the modem.
If a car is equipped with 'eCall' from the factory in the EU a missing modem is seen as a safety defect and fails the yearly inspection which is required for road use.
One workaround is to buy a computer monitor and use that instead. Most of those are still pretty dumb HDMI or USB terminals that you can plug any signal source into. They don't come in huge sizes like TVs (although search "digital signage" for some options), and you'll need a dedicated sound speaker system, but this route could be an option.
> Is there any smart TV that I can actually just use a TV how I want?
I’ve heard that large computer monitors and TVs intended to be used as displays can be used without connecting them to a network.
> Or am I reduced to buying an Apple TV device and unplugging the TV from the internet entirely ?
An Apple TV is a good choice even otherwise. I’ve never seen a smoother and quicker interface on a native Smart TV (granted that I’ve only seen Android and webOS). I use my Apple TV as the only network connected device while my TV is not connected to any network ever. Once in a while, I update the TV’s firmware by downloading it to a thumb drive and plugging that into the USB port of the TV.
Better yet, use a Linux HTPC. The Apple TV box is comically restricted. For example, because there is no web browser, there is no straightforward way to watch YouTube ad-free on it.
A Shield is the better choice because you can install apps that Apple would never approve of.
But the Nvidia Shield has (or had?) ads from Google, right? I recall there was news coverage and some uproar when this happened a few years ago.
The default Google launcher is a disgusting mess. But since it is an Android, you do not have to use it and can use one of the many ad free ones. I use Projectivy
> Or am I reduced to buying an Apple TV device and unplugging the TV from the internet entirely ?
At least until TV makers wise up to that strategy and build a TV that requires internet access to unlock the HDMI port, that's the way to go.
I don't have a reference, but I remember reading that some Samsung TVs require internet access to get past initial setup and allow access to HDMI. So we might already be here..
>Or am I reduced to buying an Apple TV device and unplugging the TV from the internet entirely?
Why would this be something that you're "reduced" to? Why would it be a bad thing?
It kind of defeats the initial purpose of buying a smart tv though. I wanted to avoid having an extra peripheral for connectivity.
No such device exists, though. All smart TVs are as user hostile as manufacturers believe they can get away with. If they could make them worse for the user, they would. They're just pushing the boundaries as far as they can.
Alternatively, dns block the update domains, wait a few months to few years for someone to discover an exploit for rooting, root and sideload.
What happens when they move from default dns to ech with pinned dns servers? I was reading about ech a bit yesterday so I could keep up with apps trying to circumvent dns filtering on my kids' devices.
Usually I require a root cert so devices can have their traffic inspected or be isolated into an unsafe network where most nonessential traffic is blocked by default. I suppose letting an iot device connect will become more risky in the future when I can't control the dns resolver or can't confidently block requests through dns alone.
IF its an android, connect to it via ADB and disable all the BS apps, even launcher. I am using projectivity launcher on mine, even has child lock which we really need. No ads or popups etc at all. YouTube is all we watch on this TV anyway, and retro gaming and movies.
I also have Nvidia Shield connected to it, that one is setup the same way.
Do any Android-based TVs allow you to install and use a custom launcher?
I would also like to know the answer here because I see similar slop across brands/prices/sizes/generations of TV now.. its inescapable
It is totally bonkers. For long time the low tech recommendation (without setting rules on router/firewall) was to never connect TV to network, and use cheap TV box, to use streaming services. And then community's favorite - TiVo - started to show their own ads. Everything based on Android TV is also hit or miss. And might get enshitified with an update at any time. I think NVidia Shield is the only device other than AppleTV that works as expected. Only it didn't have an hardware upgrade in 5+ years.
It's unfortunate that the 2020s era Apple is so big/rich, in a way. Old Apple used to dabble in all sorts of niches, but now they need to sell 10M units/year to move the needle. So they'll never just make a TV now.
I bought a Sony Android TV a few years back which has yet to be enshitified - doesn't shove ads or shovelware down my throat, acts like a TV. It's a model made for the Japanese market though and they may have incentives to play nice with domestic customers.
Reminds me of the people of the future in Mike Judge’s “Idiocracy” who watch large TVs where most of the space is taken by advertising.
It’s amazing how this one turned morphed from humor into an eerie warning of the future in 20 years.
https://youtu.be/YqQ6D0Bu-a8
I love my Hisense TV. It was the best bang for my bucks when I bought it. Nice and big, nice and bright and 4k. I'm not a pixel peeper by any stretch of the imagination, so I'm not too fussed about having the best of the best in my living room. I've had it so far for about 5 years, and I might keep it for much longer.
That TV has not whiffed a single packet over it's network interface, and it never will. I've learnt my lesson with smart previous smart tv's (looking at you Samsung), and I'm more than happy to run outdated firmware on my TV. If it works it works.
If I buy a new tv that needs internet to get working, or the shipped firmware is buggy, then I'll take it back to the store as it's not working. Simple as.
Anyone who lets their TV on their network is naive. It has one job.
I never would have thought Zero Trust would be a requirement for home networking, but here we are since ~2020.
Peacock app does the same thing. Mandatory 15-second-long commercial before starting whatever you want to watch.
Hisense has low taste.
IMO when ads have to be force-fed to consumers means the ad industry has already jumped the shark. Advertising is dominated by a few giants, trying to push a niche of even more ads becomes a waste of resources for always diminishing returns.
Yet advertisers still believe more ads always mean more sales.
Just wait until these ad spaces are used for political propaganda/messages from the leaders. The unskippable stuff already implements the toolkit for further escalation.
Related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47325280
Here could some European company that already makes tv to step in and create something good, with no ads, and even better if they promise to open the sourcecode, bootloader etc... Something like Philips for example. But I guess they are too busy making lightbulbs to notice that they could fill that gap on the TV market space.
Philips has made "smart" TVs for years, including OLEDs, and they're more or less Android TVs like most other manufacturers. So I wouldn't hold your breath for them.
That is what I meant, they are no different from any other brand. But they could be. They could guarantee no enshitification, or an open platform.
european TVs aren’t that much better
Exactly that is my point. They could be. There is no incentive to buy Philips over any chinese brand if they all are going to spy.
But it could be different. Like how Oneplus allowed Cyanogen on their devices.
There are no real European TVs anymore. The Philips TV brand is Chinese owned for more than a decade now.
Hopefully these can still be blocked by adguard et al: https://old.reddit.com/r/Adblock/comments/116144l/is_there_a...
completely unsuprising, Hisense is garbage and actively user hostile.
> live TV
Does anyone watch linear TV other than for sport and news?
Everything else (movies, TV shows) is through streaming apps, no?
My local PBS station has some good shows (ad-free)
We might watch it “live”, but it’s through a TiVo, and not the tuner in the TV. Usually, though, we start the few scheduled shows we watch 30-60m late to be able to skip commercials.
We only watch OTA TV and have no streaming services so I guess the answer is yes.
Cool. Do you have a favorite new TV show that you’re watching currently and that you’d recommend?
Not the person you were responding to but I work at a TV station here in the US. What kind of shows do you like? My husband and I are getting into "The Rise and Fall of Reggie Dinkins" if you want a new show. If new episodes of a long running show is fine, I still relax to Jeopardy when I can. If you don't stream anything, you can usually still find golf on the weekends which we use for our cats. :)
I was going to Lowe's tomorrow to buy a Hisense dehumidifier, but fuck them. Will find a different brand
In the past, you had to wait for the tubes to warm up, before you got a picture.
Nowadays, you have to wait for the thing to finish booting.
In the future, you have to wait for the ads to finish playing?
Gotta chug that verification can.
More and more I think that advertising should just be banned. People will tell me it's useful. I don't believe it. But even if it were true, it's not worth it. Sorry, advertisers, you abused it horribly, you ruined it for everyone.
I'll keep not connecting my TV to the Internet and keep using a Fire TV stick for now.
Fire Stick/Fire TV is a pretty dreadful experience as it is. Video ads on the home screen, but at least you can currently install custom apps. No way to replace the home screen.
That’s what I call progress! ;)
I have a rooted LG WebOS TV. It's really nice. I can ssh into it. It's on a dedicated VLAN which has all LG domains and IP firewalled off. It can connect to Youtube, using a version of the Youtube app with integrated adblocker and sponsorblock. It's absolute superb.
Do you have any recommended links for such a setup? I don’t connect my TV to the network and use it with an Apple TV. But I’m interested to know more on this.
Sure, first you check if your TV is rootable: https://cani.rootmy.tv/
If not, you can try and find one on Ebay or local classifieds that is. That's the hardest part.
Then you setup a VLAN (I use OpenWRT, which has great support for this) and some firewall rules that forbid all traffic that isn't port 80 or 443. Then you create a dnsmasq blacklist for all the LG domains (good list is [1]).
Then you install this: https://github.com/webosbrew/youtube-webos
Enjoy Youtube on a large screen under your control without ads, and without annoying sponsors.
[1] https://raw.githubusercontent.com/hagezi/dns-blocklists/main...
Love my Apple TV box. Just sayin’
Why you would want your TV Manufacturer to control the experience at this point I have no idea. 5-6 years ago, we were a Roku only household. Now we are Apple TV all the way and haven’t looked back.
The other day I was at a spa, they had a TV in the background showing a channel with relaxing images, but after 5 minutes ads started playing.I don't think the spa staff even knew about it. we're fucked
Reminds me of someone who tweeted at YouTube about an experience trying to perform CPR and the CPR video on YouTube got interrupted by an unskippable ad
This is likely either a YouTube/Roku channel that shows relaxing images but monetizes them via ads.
If someone was offering you a sweet but in exchange they punched you in the face, you'd probably question whether the sweet was really worth it. Unless, of course, you're addicted to the sweets.
Time to kick the addiction. Seek out ways to spend your time that are good for you and/or others.
It's not sweets and it's not an addiction, not everything on TV is for mindless consumption. The viewer is not who's at fault here. The right mindset is not "accept their terms or give up", it's "make your voice heard and try to make the manufacturers change their practices".
this is theft of time
i am never buying another smart tv again. we all should vote with our wallet, but alas — such is life.
i will be replacing my existing (3 year old tv) when its time with a pc monitor and yes, i will go down in size. i’ve found that really large tbs aren’t really adding that much and dominate your house the minute you walk in.
Worth it for the price though. A 100" Hisense can be had for $1k now at Best Buy. Would have been a $20,000 TV 10 years ago.
At 100" the packaging, shipping from china, the delivery, etc. add have to be so much more than $1k.
I bought a 100" TV with setup and it was only $1600. I don't know how they make money on that with all the logistics required. Two people for delivery, two different people for the wall hanging, all the materials for the packaging, and that is just to get it to my house.
Shipping from China to a US coastal warehouse is probably modestly under $200, including packaging, assuming it's shipped in a 40" container. Possibly less if there's other cargo that can be used to fill the remaining space.
I suspect the domestic costs are really dependent on volume (like, can you ship a container of 45 TVs to a warehouse near NYC or do you have to ship each unit individually) and I don't feel confident estimating that side of it.
The problem is slopware is everywhere now
You can buy a $5k TV and its startup time, auto-play adware at the Home Screen, constant OS popup notification BS, etc are almost universal.
You can't buy your way out of scammy experiences anymore because the market has figured out the people most able to afford buying their way out of it are the highest value ad/scam targets.
Hisense has never operated at the top end of the spectrum. They can sell these TVs for $1000 because they're buying the cheapest panels that the actual high-end TVs aren't using.
It's amazing how cheap Hisense TVs are, but the two we got are developing really bad white spots just outside the warranty period. You get what you pay for I guess.
Another brand I will not buy. What has become of so many companies selling out? Apple, Lenovo, Hisense, and so on.
It’s unfair to say Apple has sold out when they’re the last bastion of commercial streaming boxes that aren’t riddled with ads
Depends on your definition of ”ads”. As someone deep in the apple ecosystem without a subscription to Music or Apple TV I get regular full screen promotions/ads to subscribe when all I want to do is listen or watch my bought content.
Yeah I see them creeping in everywhere in Apple's world- now there are ads in Apple Wallet
Connecting new AirPods to an iPhone for the first time now shows Apple Music subscription ad right on the pairing screen
It is pretty riddled with ads though. By default the Home Screen shows the tv all and it’s completely crammed with ads.
Supply and demand. Unfortunately there are way more people that would rather the lower price than the ad-free.
I'm not so sure this is really a free market equilibrium. There are two effects which explain the prevalence of ads even if consumers are willing to pay more for ad-free products:
- Imperfect information, aka Market for Lemons: It can be hard to find out how prevalent ads will be when buying a product. Consumers often make a purchasing decision without knowledge about ads.
- Changing terms after lock-in, aka Enshittification: Manufacturers (like Hisense here) can add advertising to products after consumers have already bought them. Initially, consumers have negotiation power since they can freely choose a product, but later they are locked in and cannot easily react to the manufacturer changing the product to their detriment.