It's generally accepted that the stories of fairies tied to specific locations across the UK and Ireland is due to the presence of magic mushrooms growing relatively close by.
The British isles do not have old mushroom foraging traditions (in particular, what mushroom foraging traditions there are, are younger than fairy stories). Without some solid oral tradition, going around sampling mushrooms looking for a high is very risky.
Even if there was a tradition, why would they be limited to only where particular mushrooms grew? They would surely be picked and transported then. For that matter, don't hallucinogenic mushroom varieties grow all over the British isles? Many mushrooms aren't very picky about climate.
FWIW, mushroom rings are real, at least in the UK. They seemed to be affected by EMF, because I wandered past one centered directly centered under street power lines, I have no idea whether that's where a ley-line intersect it or not. I don't think they were psychedelic mushrooms though, but it was pretty cool seeing them growing in a large circle about 3-4m in diameter.
The main point of the article is that they're psychedelic, but don't contain psilocybin as the active molecule.
In earlier centuries it doesn't seem unreasonable to allow the possibility of the mushroom ingester to describe their experience as visiting the fae realm, whether in the UK or otherwise - as an accidental occurence I don't know how else people from the past would be able to explain what they perceived to others?
Of course mushroom rings are real, you get them when the mycelium grows mushrooms at its edges to spread outwards. But it has nothing do to with EMF.
Eating mushrooms without knowledge will kill you. Cultures either don't eat mushrooms, or they develop knowledge of what mushrooms are safe to eat and which ones kill you - or make you see elves. There's no world where people see elves but don't connect it to the mushrooms they ate 15 minutes ago. It's also not very plausible that they as a culture stopped going on elf trips, but remembered the elves and forgot what made you see them. In short there's just so many ways this is a bad theory.
It would be interesting if it turned out that they are not hallucinations. The tiny people are real but for several hundred or maybe thousands of years have been slipping something into our food or water that makes it so we don't perceive them. The chemical in this mushroom temporarily neutralizes that.
Let's say something had technology so far advanced we could only perceive it as magic - our electronic brains could easily be hacked from a distance.
All the advanced race would need to do is to prevent short/long term memory creation of certain things. Just set a rule to prevent caching of certain patterns, bob's your uncle they could live amongst us in peace.
But of course a hallucinogenic could circumvent those hacks but fundamentally altering memory generation and perception. So in theory the aliens could be really tiny little humanoids living amongst us and we're constantly adjusting to not crush them, but we just don't remember.
Actually, Amanita Muscaria probably has the same alcaloid, as it induces too visions of small people watching you from the forest's bushes... Don't ask me how I know it.
Never heard of those, but many sites that sell THC/CBD products also sell amanita because they know it has desired effects and is mostly legal in the US.
Those are primarily associated with DMT (the one time I tried it, I too had such an encounter and I didn't know it was a thing until years later).
I'm sure I'll be corrected on this but I think DMT and Psilocybin ultimately affect the same pathways so it's just more evidence that Machine Elves are real! (/s on the real part).
Yeah, my comment was a bit loose, but I think it's likely that the pathways are ultimately arriving at the same destination.
I've done plenty of psychonaut adventures in the past but it was only that one experience with DMT that actually gave that experience -- but it was also the only time in which I completely disengaged from local reality.
The mushrooms that the article talks about do not contain psilocybin (it's still not clear what psychoactive compound they contain), but you are correct in that DMT and psilocybin, at comparable doses, have extremely similar subjective effects.
Avid conosour of both DMT and Psilocybin and would not characterize the effects as “extremely similar”. Psychedelic yes, but profoundly different at their core in heroic doses—at least from my vantage point.
Just curious, nn-DMT or 5meo-DMT? I haven't tried either but have heard nn-DMT to be more the machine elves type experience and 5meo-DMT to elicit a feeling of not existing in the physical world anymore.
Usually when people just say DMT they mean nn-DMT (which is a lot more visual/weird and can bring on the "elves" at breakthrough dosage). 5-meo-dmt(/bufo) is much more of a felt thing, but can definitely have some visual effects (I usually get enveloped in the bright white light of god before dissolving into everything/nothing, ymmv).
It would be fascinating to have research into what is effectively manifesting the experience.
My (extremely limited) understanding is that humans are "hardwired" for pattern recognition (especially faces) -- could there be some sort of ROM equivalent of "this pattern is another human" that gets engaged by the chemical experience?
Maybe. It's certainly the case that there are areas of the human brain which are specifically associated with recognizing faces, like the fusiform face area - it's an intrinsic capability of the brain, not one that's learned. But I'm not certain that's sufficient to explain what's happening here. Increasing the activation of that area would most likely result in a person perceiving faces everywhere (e.g. an extreme form of pareidolia), not entire humanoid figures.
Almost all of the reports from people I know who have done ayahuasca have reported seeing "elves". It's not only common, they say it's not a "valid" trip unless you do, and even converse with them.
Though I don't know any reports of profound conversations.
The idea that there is one “valid” trip is essentially gatekeeping and should be pushed back on whenever it comes up. It leads to one of the more unhealthy sides of the psychedelic experience - nobody should feel that they have to continually chase something that’s not happening for them.
Like, I know at least two people who’ve done it in group settings with people who saw “elves” and they themselves didn’t see any.
“Valid” as a descriptor is probably best replaced with “average”.
Fwiw having drank ayahuasca hundreds of times, I've never seen elves (have seen plenty of other weird stuff though). Only times have been with breakthrough doses of smoked dmt. I guarantee it doesn't make it any less/more valid. There are so many more profound things to see, I don't know why people get so hung up on elves lol (if you ever experience meeting the medicine of a master plant/tree spirt during a traditional dieta you'd be flabbergasted).
I have some earnest questions, and please take it in that spirit, though I realize these might easily be interpreted as being negative.
To disclose, I've done LSD probably 15 times and 4-ACO-DMT three or four times. I haven't done it in years and I'm OK if I never do them again. LSD no longer hits the same way it used to such that the unpleasant parts now far outweigh the good parts.
Getting back to my questions, I've been under the understanding that ayahuasca can be punishing (vomiting, scary trips) but people often find it was worth it due to the insights they gain in the process. After the first handful of trips, are you still finding out new things? Are you so familiar with the terrifying aspects that they are no longer terrifying? Or are you lucky that the good aspects are still worth the price of admission? Is the driver for you insights or just the novel experiences which arise?
My wife's therapist went on an ayahuasca retreat and said it was like going through a wringer emotionally but it was really worth it. It had me wondering if maybe I should try it. A year later the therapist did it again and said it was like going through a ringer every night for four nights and she got nothing from it. :-(
I'm a bit of a different case, have been volunteering/working at retreat centers in Peru and Mexico for the last 6 years (and am somewhat of an apprentice in a particular tradition).
There are tough parts physically sure, you mostly get used to those parts, sometimes I'll have long stretches of not vomiting and sometimes it'll be every (or multiple times per) ceremony.
As far as "finding out new things", we often use this analogy of layers of an onion (of which you tend to cry more with each layer coming off :)). Breaks between sessions to integrate are needed- after a retreat you might find that some of your baselines have shifted, and you need to find your new normal (or make changes in your life to break out of the old patterns you didn't realize you were stuck in because it was just normal/programmed and not a choice previously). After you've adjusted/integrated other things may begin to surface that were just overshadowed by the energies you've cleaned up before. (A good shaman has cleaned themself to the point that their own energies no longer dominate their vision, and they can "see" outside themselves to diagnose/heal others). Anyways sometimes the physical side effects are just too much for some people and it's understandably not the modality for them...if you spend your ceremonies being entirely consumed by those effects, you can still make progress drinking with a good shaman (though it might be a few ceremonies before you get your head above water).
I still get surprised (especially with master plant diets). Ayahuasca isn't addictive but I think for some of us there is an intellectual addiction to it. The scary ones are the ones I look forward to now :).
I'm very biased but I'd only recommend doing retreats that offer master plant diets in a traditional Shipibo context if you're looking to make lasting changes. The master plants (adjunct plants taken alongside ayahuasca) offer a whole other dimension that ayahuasca alone doesn't even scratch the surface of. A weekend retreat in someone's garage might be ok for a "tuneup" or to see where you're at once in a while, but it's not the place for deep work or for someone new imo (and you risk opening a box that you won't have time to wrap your head around).
I have done ayahuasca and many people report seeing something like this: http://pbmo.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/machine-elf-2.jpg I can say from my personal experience, that this is only one possible "hallucination" although quite common.
> it's not a "valid" trip unless you do
You can definitely have a life-changing experience without encountering machine elves.
>Current tests suggest it is not likely related to any other known psychedelic compound. For one, the trips it produces are unusually long, commonly lasting 12 to 24 hours, and in some cases even causing hospital stays of up to a week.
Plenty of common psychedelics have durations in excess of 12 hours. Some even in excess of 24 e.g. high doses of 2C-P. This may be a novel compound, but the duration is not necessarily an indicator.
I read this merely as not likely corresponding to any psychedelic compound known to occur in nature, not that it isn't psychedelic. Of course, even that isn't a given, since there could be some interaction between a known compound and a second compound affecting the metabolism of the first one. Although the description of its effects doesn't really sound like any psychedelic I've tried either, and I've tried quite a few
I'm still open to it being psychedelic(primarily acting on the 5-HT-2 receptor family) though. It could just be that there's enough folklore surrounding these mushrooms in the local culture to explain the very specific effects. After all, cultural beliefs are a part of "set and setting".
Another example, this one deliriant and not psychedelic, is atropine/scopolamine, found in certain nightshades, such as deadly nightshade, mandrake, plants in the Datura genus, and trees in the Brugmansia genus. The chemical weapon QNB, also called BZ is another example of a long-acting deliriant.
As far as classic psychedelics go, I've read mescaline (3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine) lasts really long.
My experiences with mescaline are that it has mostly wound down by 6-8 hours though I can tell that I am slightly "off" for a few hours after that. Shorter timeframe than LSD, though not by a whole lot.
In my youth I experimented with hallucinogenic drugs. Having shared hallucinations are very easy. It often just requires that someone give you an idea of a hallucination, or someone tells you what they see, and your brain will make you see it as well.
Maybe people know these things make you see small people, and then they are primed to do so.
There are other species of the same genus that grow in southern Europe and north America, but if any contain the same compounds they don't appear in the literature. More research needed.
> "It sounded so bizarre that there could be a mushroom out there causing fairytale-like visions reported across cultures and time," Domnauer says.
Now I'm kinda curious whether fairy tales are the result of these visions or the other way around. Probably both.
It's generally accepted that the stories of fairies tied to specific locations across the UK and Ireland is due to the presence of magic mushrooms growing relatively close by.
Generally accepted by who?
The British isles do not have old mushroom foraging traditions (in particular, what mushroom foraging traditions there are, are younger than fairy stories). Without some solid oral tradition, going around sampling mushrooms looking for a high is very risky.
Even if there was a tradition, why would they be limited to only where particular mushrooms grew? They would surely be picked and transported then. For that matter, don't hallucinogenic mushroom varieties grow all over the British isles? Many mushrooms aren't very picky about climate.
In short I don't believe this at all.
FWIW, mushroom rings are real, at least in the UK. They seemed to be affected by EMF, because I wandered past one centered directly centered under street power lines, I have no idea whether that's where a ley-line intersect it or not. I don't think they were psychedelic mushrooms though, but it was pretty cool seeing them growing in a large circle about 3-4m in diameter.
The main point of the article is that they're psychedelic, but don't contain psilocybin as the active molecule.
In earlier centuries it doesn't seem unreasonable to allow the possibility of the mushroom ingester to describe their experience as visiting the fae realm, whether in the UK or otherwise - as an accidental occurence I don't know how else people from the past would be able to explain what they perceived to others?
Of course mushroom rings are real, you get them when the mycelium grows mushrooms at its edges to spread outwards. But it has nothing do to with EMF.
Eating mushrooms without knowledge will kill you. Cultures either don't eat mushrooms, or they develop knowledge of what mushrooms are safe to eat and which ones kill you - or make you see elves. There's no world where people see elves but don't connect it to the mushrooms they ate 15 minutes ago. It's also not very plausible that they as a culture stopped going on elf trips, but remembered the elves and forgot what made you see them. In short there's just so many ways this is a bad theory.
It would be interesting if it turned out that they are not hallucinations. The tiny people are real but for several hundred or maybe thousands of years have been slipping something into our food or water that makes it so we don't perceive them. The chemical in this mushroom temporarily neutralizes that.
Let's say something had technology so far advanced we could only perceive it as magic - our electronic brains could easily be hacked from a distance.
All the advanced race would need to do is to prevent short/long term memory creation of certain things. Just set a rule to prevent caching of certain patterns, bob's your uncle they could live amongst us in peace.
But of course a hallucinogenic could circumvent those hacks but fundamentally altering memory generation and perception. So in theory the aliens could be really tiny little humanoids living amongst us and we're constantly adjusting to not crush them, but we just don't remember.
SCP anti-memetics division.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ten_O%27Clock_People
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_of_Our_Fathers_(short_st...
They Live vibes from your comment.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096256/
Common Side Effects? (show)
+1 for this show )
Great show!
Actually, Amanita Muscaria probably has the same alcaloid, as it induces too visions of small people watching you from the forest's bushes... Don't ask me how I know it.
Do you know this from personal experience or after watching a "Hamilton's Pharmacopeia" episode or a similar documentary?
Never heard of those, but many sites that sell THC/CBD products also sell amanita because they know it has desired effects and is mostly legal in the US.
This sounds like a variation of Machine Elves -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine#Entity_enco...
Those are primarily associated with DMT (the one time I tried it, I too had such an encounter and I didn't know it was a thing until years later).
I'm sure I'll be corrected on this but I think DMT and Psilocybin ultimately affect the same pathways so it's just more evidence that Machine Elves are real! (/s on the real part).
>“It's not psilocybin that's giving the L. asiatica mushrooms their lilliputian effect”
Unknown compound ATM.
Yeah, my comment was a bit loose, but I think it's likely that the pathways are ultimately arriving at the same destination.
I've done plenty of psychonaut adventures in the past but it was only that one experience with DMT that actually gave that experience -- but it was also the only time in which I completely disengaged from local reality.
The mushrooms that the article talks about do not contain psilocybin (it's still not clear what psychoactive compound they contain), but you are correct in that DMT and psilocybin, at comparable doses, have extremely similar subjective effects.
Avid conosour of both DMT and Psilocybin and would not characterize the effects as “extremely similar”. Psychedelic yes, but profoundly different at their core in heroic doses—at least from my vantage point.
Just curious, nn-DMT or 5meo-DMT? I haven't tried either but have heard nn-DMT to be more the machine elves type experience and 5meo-DMT to elicit a feeling of not existing in the physical world anymore.
Usually when people just say DMT they mean nn-DMT (which is a lot more visual/weird and can bring on the "elves" at breakthrough dosage). 5-meo-dmt(/bufo) is much more of a felt thing, but can definitely have some visual effects (I usually get enveloped in the bright white light of god before dissolving into everything/nothing, ymmv).
Same vantage point here (with sample size n=1 on the DMT front).
They are both serotonin analogues, but they definitely yield different experiences.
In chemistry it often only takes a single atom difference to totally and radically change a molecule's properties.
It would be fascinating to have research into what is effectively manifesting the experience.
My (extremely limited) understanding is that humans are "hardwired" for pattern recognition (especially faces) -- could there be some sort of ROM equivalent of "this pattern is another human" that gets engaged by the chemical experience?
Maybe. It's certainly the case that there are areas of the human brain which are specifically associated with recognizing faces, like the fusiform face area - it's an intrinsic capability of the brain, not one that's learned. But I'm not certain that's sufficient to explain what's happening here. Increasing the activation of that area would most likely result in a person perceiving faces everywhere (e.g. an extreme form of pareidolia), not entire humanoid figures.
Malkovich? Malkovich! -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIpev8JXJHQ
Almost all of the reports from people I know who have done ayahuasca have reported seeing "elves". It's not only common, they say it's not a "valid" trip unless you do, and even converse with them.
Though I don't know any reports of profound conversations.
The idea that there is one “valid” trip is essentially gatekeeping and should be pushed back on whenever it comes up. It leads to one of the more unhealthy sides of the psychedelic experience - nobody should feel that they have to continually chase something that’s not happening for them.
Like, I know at least two people who’ve done it in group settings with people who saw “elves” and they themselves didn’t see any.
“Valid” as a descriptor is probably best replaced with “average”.
Fwiw having drank ayahuasca hundreds of times, I've never seen elves (have seen plenty of other weird stuff though). Only times have been with breakthrough doses of smoked dmt. I guarantee it doesn't make it any less/more valid. There are so many more profound things to see, I don't know why people get so hung up on elves lol (if you ever experience meeting the medicine of a master plant/tree spirt during a traditional dieta you'd be flabbergasted).
> having drank ayahuasca hundreds of times
I have some earnest questions, and please take it in that spirit, though I realize these might easily be interpreted as being negative.
To disclose, I've done LSD probably 15 times and 4-ACO-DMT three or four times. I haven't done it in years and I'm OK if I never do them again. LSD no longer hits the same way it used to such that the unpleasant parts now far outweigh the good parts.
Getting back to my questions, I've been under the understanding that ayahuasca can be punishing (vomiting, scary trips) but people often find it was worth it due to the insights they gain in the process. After the first handful of trips, are you still finding out new things? Are you so familiar with the terrifying aspects that they are no longer terrifying? Or are you lucky that the good aspects are still worth the price of admission? Is the driver for you insights or just the novel experiences which arise?
My wife's therapist went on an ayahuasca retreat and said it was like going through a wringer emotionally but it was really worth it. It had me wondering if maybe I should try it. A year later the therapist did it again and said it was like going through a ringer every night for four nights and she got nothing from it. :-(
I'm a bit of a different case, have been volunteering/working at retreat centers in Peru and Mexico for the last 6 years (and am somewhat of an apprentice in a particular tradition).
There are tough parts physically sure, you mostly get used to those parts, sometimes I'll have long stretches of not vomiting and sometimes it'll be every (or multiple times per) ceremony.
As far as "finding out new things", we often use this analogy of layers of an onion (of which you tend to cry more with each layer coming off :)). Breaks between sessions to integrate are needed- after a retreat you might find that some of your baselines have shifted, and you need to find your new normal (or make changes in your life to break out of the old patterns you didn't realize you were stuck in because it was just normal/programmed and not a choice previously). After you've adjusted/integrated other things may begin to surface that were just overshadowed by the energies you've cleaned up before. (A good shaman has cleaned themself to the point that their own energies no longer dominate their vision, and they can "see" outside themselves to diagnose/heal others). Anyways sometimes the physical side effects are just too much for some people and it's understandably not the modality for them...if you spend your ceremonies being entirely consumed by those effects, you can still make progress drinking with a good shaman (though it might be a few ceremonies before you get your head above water).
I still get surprised (especially with master plant diets). Ayahuasca isn't addictive but I think for some of us there is an intellectual addiction to it. The scary ones are the ones I look forward to now :).
I'm very biased but I'd only recommend doing retreats that offer master plant diets in a traditional Shipibo context if you're looking to make lasting changes. The master plants (adjunct plants taken alongside ayahuasca) offer a whole other dimension that ayahuasca alone doesn't even scratch the surface of. A weekend retreat in someone's garage might be ok for a "tuneup" or to see where you're at once in a while, but it's not the place for deep work or for someone new imo (and you risk opening a box that you won't have time to wrap your head around).
Some friends of mine in college were sitting in a cave, tripping, when a group of actual little people (not elves) walked past them.
The universe finds a way...
I have done ayahuasca and many people report seeing something like this: http://pbmo.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/machine-elf-2.jpg I can say from my personal experience, that this is only one possible "hallucination" although quite common.
> it's not a "valid" trip unless you do You can definitely have a life-changing experience without encountering machine elves.
Feels like now that I've seen it, it could become a self fulfilling prophecy
I didn’t see elves but I saw a dark jungle with a big cat’s reflective eyes looking at me. Kind of cool.
Can't help but remember this wonderful story: https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/21/universal-love-said-th...
Make sure it's fully cooked or you may see little people is a wild table side instruction.
>Current tests suggest it is not likely related to any other known psychedelic compound. For one, the trips it produces are unusually long, commonly lasting 12 to 24 hours, and in some cases even causing hospital stays of up to a week.
Plenty of common psychedelics have durations in excess of 12 hours. Some even in excess of 24 e.g. high doses of 2C-P. This may be a novel compound, but the duration is not necessarily an indicator.
I read this merely as not likely corresponding to any psychedelic compound known to occur in nature, not that it isn't psychedelic. Of course, even that isn't a given, since there could be some interaction between a known compound and a second compound affecting the metabolism of the first one. Although the description of its effects doesn't really sound like any psychedelic I've tried either, and I've tried quite a few
I'm still open to it being psychedelic(primarily acting on the 5-HT-2 receptor family) though. It could just be that there's enough folklore surrounding these mushrooms in the local culture to explain the very specific effects. After all, cultural beliefs are a part of "set and setting".
Another example, this one deliriant and not psychedelic, is atropine/scopolamine, found in certain nightshades, such as deadly nightshade, mandrake, plants in the Datura genus, and trees in the Brugmansia genus. The chemical weapon QNB, also called BZ is another example of a long-acting deliriant.
As far as classic psychedelics go, I've read mescaline (3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine) lasts really long.
My experiences with mescaline are that it has mostly wound down by 6-8 hours though I can tell that I am slightly "off" for a few hours after that. Shorter timeframe than LSD, though not by a whole lot.
Young me was always interested in trying datura despite the harrowing trip reports on erowid. Glad i never was presented with the opportunity.
Here is a paper about an authors experience searching for these mushrooms in Yunnan. Fun stuff
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/226076639_Xiao_Ren_...
Here's the Wikipedia article, which provides more information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogenic_bolete_mushroom
Dennis McKenna, mentioned in the article, is the brother of the late Terence McKenna.
In my youth I experimented with hallucinogenic drugs. Having shared hallucinations are very easy. It often just requires that someone give you an idea of a hallucination, or someone tells you what they see, and your brain will make you see it as well.
Maybe people know these things make you see small people, and then they are primed to do so.
In the brain, expectations modulate perception. If your perception is breaking down, expectations can control how.
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46393936
Previous discussion:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46393936
For some reason, this reminded me of the "little people" in a genius book, 1Q84 by Haruki Murakami.
Maybe the compound temporarily transports you to one of those other worlds.
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Yes, but where can I get some?
Yes, also curious where you might locate a few kilos of said fungi?
There are other species of the same genus that grow in southern Europe and north America, but if any contain the same compounds they don't appear in the literature. More research needed.
Anyone else initially struggle to parse the headline correctly?
I was curious about “the mushroom making people” who were doing the “hallucinating [of] tiny humans”.
Wonder if it will turn out to be related to muscimol that is in amanita mushrooms, as that is always described as more delirious and dream-like
Muscimol has not produced tiny people for me, but it definitely is different from psilocybin.
It definitely is a weirder trip overall, though.
But can we grow them in the UK?
So smurfs?
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