> In some cases, criminal records appear to be a factor. Other instances have reportedly included minor legal infractions like driving over the speed limit. But "a lot" of those targeted have been involved in pro-Palestinian protests, Secretary of State Marco Rubio himself has said.
Have there been any successful legal challenges and wins on this front?
I find a lot are surprised by the rules around student visas. These were always “walking on shells” type visas. The port of entry officers can cancel it based on a vague hunch. It can be cancelled from breaking university rules. It may not seem fair but it’s always been like that.
A 1st amendment appeal is worth trying as defense strategy for protesters but the response to it is usually that the students are not sent to prison, they are merely “sent home”.
This is also a golden moment for EU and other countries to say “come here instead” and make that process as smooth as possible.
> This is also a golden moment for EU and other countries to say “come here instead” and make that process as smooth as possible
It's walking on egg shells in other countries as well - either requiring upfront cash in the $30-50k range as proof of funds, or limited ability to convert into residency or a work visa.
More fundamentally, at least in STEM the cream of the crop of a lot of countries doesn't really immigrate to settle anymore because domestic options can pay comparable or higher than those in the EU or the Commonwealth. At best they will study abroad for grad school at a top program, work for a couple years, and then return to the old country because of family commitments and upward growth potential.
This trend already began among Koreans in the 2000s, Chinese in the 2010s, and now among Indians as well.
The EU might have had a chance attracting top talent from MENA, but xenophobia and low salaries+high taxes made UAE and KSA more enticing (German level salaries for white collar work, no taxes, and easier to blend in).
True. An indian muslim friend of mine is doing his Masters + Doctorate in Israel. His fiancée also got into the same program. Two-three years back, he was quite excited to go and study there and went full of optimism and hope to Israel. Last year, he came down for a week to get married. But he was so anxious about going back to Israel because of the open visreal hatred that some Israelis now have of Palestinians, and his own anguish and anger of the brutality of the genocide in Gaza. He felt frustrated that he was not doing anything about it. We commiserated with each other on how powerless such things can make us feel. And while I am politically active about it in my own country (anti-war protests), my advise to him was not to do anything about it, or to say anything about it while he was in Israel. To follow the golden rule of not discussing religion or politics with anyone, or even post anything about it on social media. To not even talk about it on phone when he spoke with any of us. And to just focus on his program, his newly married life, and if possible to get out of Israel as soon as he can. And that's what he has decided to do - focus on spirituality than politics, while he and his wife also explore options to transfer somewhere to Europe and continue their education.
See, "free speech", right to protest, and all the other rights that democracy entails is all fine and dandy - until you are a foreigner in another country. For all purposes, a foreigner is often a second-class citizen with fewer rights. And no country (democracy or otherwise) I know of tolerates any sort of political activity by foreigners. Indeed, many countries explicitly state so when issuing a visa that any kind of political activity can result in your immediate deportation.
That said, I am somewhat surprised that Donald Trump and the Republicans haven't learnt the political lessons on how Biden's unabashed support, and even defence, of the ongoing genocide in Gaza by the Israeli-right lunatics in power cost Biden (Kamala Harris, and the Democrats) the US Presidency ( https://politics.stackexchange.com/q/89703 ). There was deep resentment against Biden / Kamala Harris due to the harsh crackdown on campus protests ( https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/may/01/college-camp... ). And the fact that political tensions on this issue is still simmering means that even a single political mistake by the Trump administration could be the spark that ignites this issue in a manner that even the media wouldn't be able to cover it up under the guise of "anti-semitism" or "support for terrorism" or "foreign incitement".
> my advise to him was not to do anything about it, or to say anything about it while he was in Israel.
That’s a good advice. You’re a good friend. The universities’ international students affairs office should be telling these students the same. Yeah, let citizen students protest. If they break a rule, they’ll get a ticket or a slap on the wrist, international students get sent home and significantly lower their chances of getting another visa.
I never imagined a day when faculty would be given instructions on how to handle ICE demands, but here we are. The activity so far has only been visas being revoked, but this is just beginning. Enrollment for Fall semester is way down, though some of that is due to uncertainty in FAFSA. All in all, it's a bad time for US universities.
The problem is the policy is following exactly what Hitler did.
There was another article that showed up fairly recently here on HN that covers this. When Hitler rose to power in his efforts to clamp down he drove all the brilliant and foreign talent out and the schools never recovered. What took 200 years to build, was completely destroyed in several months.
> In some cases, criminal records appear to be a factor. Other instances have reportedly included minor legal infractions like driving over the speed limit. But "a lot" of those targeted have been involved in pro-Palestinian protests, Secretary of State Marco Rubio himself has said.
Have there been any successful legal challenges and wins on this front?
I find a lot are surprised by the rules around student visas. These were always “walking on shells” type visas. The port of entry officers can cancel it based on a vague hunch. It can be cancelled from breaking university rules. It may not seem fair but it’s always been like that.
A 1st amendment appeal is worth trying as defense strategy for protesters but the response to it is usually that the students are not sent to prison, they are merely “sent home”.
This is also a golden moment for EU and other countries to say “come here instead” and make that process as smooth as possible.
> This is also a golden moment for EU and other countries to say “come here instead” and make that process as smooth as possible
It's walking on egg shells in other countries as well - either requiring upfront cash in the $30-50k range as proof of funds, or limited ability to convert into residency or a work visa.
More fundamentally, at least in STEM the cream of the crop of a lot of countries doesn't really immigrate to settle anymore because domestic options can pay comparable or higher than those in the EU or the Commonwealth. At best they will study abroad for grad school at a top program, work for a couple years, and then return to the old country because of family commitments and upward growth potential.
This trend already began among Koreans in the 2000s, Chinese in the 2010s, and now among Indians as well.
The EU might have had a chance attracting top talent from MENA, but xenophobia and low salaries+high taxes made UAE and KSA more enticing (German level salaries for white collar work, no taxes, and easier to blend in).
True. An indian muslim friend of mine is doing his Masters + Doctorate in Israel. His fiancée also got into the same program. Two-three years back, he was quite excited to go and study there and went full of optimism and hope to Israel. Last year, he came down for a week to get married. But he was so anxious about going back to Israel because of the open visreal hatred that some Israelis now have of Palestinians, and his own anguish and anger of the brutality of the genocide in Gaza. He felt frustrated that he was not doing anything about it. We commiserated with each other on how powerless such things can make us feel. And while I am politically active about it in my own country (anti-war protests), my advise to him was not to do anything about it, or to say anything about it while he was in Israel. To follow the golden rule of not discussing religion or politics with anyone, or even post anything about it on social media. To not even talk about it on phone when he spoke with any of us. And to just focus on his program, his newly married life, and if possible to get out of Israel as soon as he can. And that's what he has decided to do - focus on spirituality than politics, while he and his wife also explore options to transfer somewhere to Europe and continue their education.
See, "free speech", right to protest, and all the other rights that democracy entails is all fine and dandy - until you are a foreigner in another country. For all purposes, a foreigner is often a second-class citizen with fewer rights. And no country (democracy or otherwise) I know of tolerates any sort of political activity by foreigners. Indeed, many countries explicitly state so when issuing a visa that any kind of political activity can result in your immediate deportation.
That said, I am somewhat surprised that Donald Trump and the Republicans haven't learnt the political lessons on how Biden's unabashed support, and even defence, of the ongoing genocide in Gaza by the Israeli-right lunatics in power cost Biden (Kamala Harris, and the Democrats) the US Presidency ( https://politics.stackexchange.com/q/89703 ). There was deep resentment against Biden / Kamala Harris due to the harsh crackdown on campus protests ( https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/may/01/college-camp... ). And the fact that political tensions on this issue is still simmering means that even a single political mistake by the Trump administration could be the spark that ignites this issue in a manner that even the media wouldn't be able to cover it up under the guise of "anti-semitism" or "support for terrorism" or "foreign incitement".
> my advise to him was not to do anything about it, or to say anything about it while he was in Israel.
That’s a good advice. You’re a good friend. The universities’ international students affairs office should be telling these students the same. Yeah, let citizen students protest. If they break a rule, they’ll get a ticket or a slap on the wrist, international students get sent home and significantly lower their chances of getting another visa.
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I never imagined a day when faculty would be given instructions on how to handle ICE demands, but here we are. The activity so far has only been visas being revoked, but this is just beginning. Enrollment for Fall semester is way down, though some of that is due to uncertainty in FAFSA. All in all, it's a bad time for US universities.
I assume this is also going to be devastating to university finances. Foreign students pay higher tuition rates.
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The problem is the policy is following exactly what Hitler did.
There was another article that showed up fairly recently here on HN that covers this. When Hitler rose to power in his efforts to clamp down he drove all the brilliant and foreign talent out and the schools never recovered. What took 200 years to build, was completely destroyed in several months.
https://undark.org/2017/02/01/math-lesson-hitlers-germany/
> The problem is the policy is following exactly what Hitler did.
Yep. And this is what caused the exodus of people like Einstein to the US.
America is straight up on the path followed by Hitler and Nazis.
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