I clicked the headline expecting a chuckle and left with an unexpectedly warmed heart.
> “We wanted to strengthen the connection between the children and the older generations in the community. There are so many amazing people here. I thought it was such a shame that no one knew about them,” [...] “Since the card game went viral, so many kids are starting to look up to these men as heroic figures.”
> Kids have started attending local events and volunteering for community activities — just for a chance to meet the ojisan from their cards. Participation in town events has reportedly doubled since the game launched.
there's so much more I want to comment on--it's not screen-based, increased cross-generational interaction, strengthening community, elders having their stories known--but what I love is that these effects will compound into even greater benefits for the community.
This brings back something we've mostly lost in modern times. Elders had respect because they knew a lot and had contributed a lot, and everyone knew that. But that's not scalable, and we migrate a lot more now.
This is an engaging way that brings that back - rather than focusing on fantasy heroes, show kids real life role models.
I have a theory that, wrt knowledge, the relative advantage of age has been at least partially eroded by rapid technological advancement. In traditional/tribal societies, prior to the 20th century, wisdom actually accumulated with age, because the pace of change was slower. Wisdom & knowledge could be passed on from generation to generation.
Now, wisdom and knowledge become obsolete quickly. Many things you knew 20 years ago are outdated. The ICE engine you learned how to fix as a kid is now computer controlled, or has been replaced by batteries. Your optimistic/open/friendly mindset now makes you easy pickings for online scammers. Hell, even your family's secret cherished muffin recipe is spurned by your grandchildren because it has gluten or they're vegan or keto or whatever.
All this is just a take, but when I look at voting patterns in particular, I find myself pessimistic that the elderly are wiser than average.
Knowledge changes. I don't think wisdom necessarily changes. Maybe this is a philosophical discussion, but I think that is once of the key differences of knowledge and wisdom. However, I do think it is false that people necessarily accumulate wisdom with age. I know wise and unwise people of all ages, including people who think they're wise only because they're old.
when I look at voting patterns in particular, I find myself pessimistic that the elderly are wiser than average
Don't stop there, look at the US elected representatives! Washington is, from a lot of angles, a gerontocracy, and I don't think anyone would consider it "wise". The world has passed a lot of these folks by and even aside from that, their stubbornness to not step aside has in cases meant that they predictably die in office, so their seats go unfilled for a while, leaving people unrepresented...
The median age of the House is 57.5 years old and the Senate is 64.7[0]
Its really not great. There's very few representatives that have any life experiences of someone in the 30s or 40s. I'd argue that makes them out of touch on a host of very real, very pressing issues.
The other thing to think about is the age of those with the levers of power. Its one thing to be elected as a House member or to the Senate, its a whole other thing to sit on key powerful committees, be the leader of the party in the respective chamber etc. and the most powerful folks in congress trend into the 60s+
I disagree on the advantages of wisdom as these days I’m thinking the opposite:
1) Lack of wisdom leads to reinvention of the wheel. How many programming languages are there only now doing things the same way as 30 years ago? What is novel versus an unnecessary re-invention?
I started studying Tcl code from back in the late ‘90’s and honestly was surprised. Hell, many people don’t even know what macports is even though homebrew isn’t much but an attempt to reinvent macports with a “cool” spin.
2) Societal language and general problem solving skills are deteriorating. Language, and mathematics evolve ever so slowly, and yet emphasis on their importance is reduced in favor of the whims of technological advancement.
I would rather hire someone with the slow-developing, traditional skills, than the new-age fads.
In addition, with the advances in AI the only people worth hiring will be the ones with traditional education—and the wise, classically trained among our elders will be evermore important.
Yet what we’re seeing on the web with Typescript components turning to a pretty version of MFC minus the right/middle-click capability. The “single-page app” becoming a defacto standard mode of development.
Looking at the Fluent design React components just makes me wonder: this is progress from the desktop metaphor designed in the 90’s? What are we trying to achieve?
Then, I take a step back and realize that the 20-something’s from today don’t generally know what that is because they are cloud native.
For the future of the USA this is fortunately not very accurate, and microplastics are not associated with increased incidence of dark triad personality traits, as far as I know.
The craziest and stupidest things I hear regularly are from older people. There are broad swathes of old people that, not having been raised to be skeptical about media consumption on the internet, are entirely credulous about all manner of insane dis/mis-information.
That said, it's also something I'm seeing with younger people as well.
Every time I scroll through r/wallstreetbets or r/cryptocurrency I realize that I understand something about risk and patience that many young people do not. I am not disrespecting individual investors and I don't hate btc (tbh I don't invest in it either).
It's obvious that a lot of people feel like they have to find a way to get rich in the next three years or they will be poor forever. I am sure my generation was often the same. But people who have been through good times and bad times understand risk and patience.
people today cannot imagine what it would have been like to have each generation do, experience and believe exactly the same thing. for thousands of years. even just a few hundred years ago, new ideas were basically a waste of time because everything had already been tried. history would swallow you up.
I find many “elders” I know think climate change is a hoax, solar power is dumb , transsexuals are evil, immigration is silly etc, basically they hold extreme views and it effects my ability to trust their word or opinion.
I’m not sure if technology is to blame, I think social media is probably part of their corruption, Fox News too, but yeah, the lack of interest in their opinions is mostly self inflicted and I feel they choose to believe in nonsense because it’s fun to hate things.
What technology has done is give me access to lots of knowledge and wisdom and now I don’t have to put up with all the cruft to get what I need.
Some elders in my life are more balanced and I enjoy seeking their opinion and wisdom and leaning on their experience for all sorts of things.
One exception for me is that in Japan, even opinions are considered to be potentially offensive so elderly people are careful with their words. I’ve very really interacted with an older Japanese person who just spits rhetoric and conspiracy theories. Japanese even are careful to make a statement like “this is the best chocolate I’ve tasted”,
It’s much more common to say “I think this is wonderful”.
> ...but when I look at voting patterns in particular, I find myself pessimistic that the elderly are wiser than average.
Wisdom like 'It's harder to build something than it is to tear it down' and 'Change carries its own risk.'
The irony is that older people overwhelming voted for Trump on the basis of returning things to the way they were... and then Trump staffed his administration with young ideologues who are determined to upset the traditional order.
People group together uncorrelated concerns way too much in politics. I guess it's necessary side effect of the "us vs. them" mind virus.
> The irony is that older people overwhelming voted for Trump on the basis of returning things to the way they were... and then Trump staffed his administration with young ideologues who are determined to upset the traditional order.
There isn't any irony there. People heard promises of some X and Y and Z returning to the way things were, they voted accordingly, and then their candidate proceeded to go against them on A, B and C. This is only surprising if you believe there's a strong ideological correlation between all these things (there isn't), and that parties and their leaders act according to their purported ideologies (they don't).
That portions of the investment community threw in behind Trump and are now shocked (shocked!) that he has bigger priorities than keeping the market pumped is absolutely ironic.
Counterpoint: The only people who voted for Harris more than Biden were old white people (especially old white women).
The biggest shift towards right wing authoritarianism from a demographic perspective is among the young (specifically young brown/black men in America). This is happening globally at a rapid and unprecedented pace.
Get ready for a conservative, violent, radicalized youth. A Clockwork Orange but with 4chan like characteristics.
I'm not pessimistic about Boomers anymore. They're becoming teddybears as they age.
Two of my teenage sons play sports and at times it feels like all content consumption roads eventually lead to “manfluencers”[0]. If they’re watching content on lifting techniques, sports discussions, or gaming—not uncommon topics for teenagers—the recommendations are riddled with rabbit holes into the so called manosphere.
I think society hasn’t figured out the incentives for elders currently. In private settings it’s fine, but in the work context I’ve seen few incentives for >50 year olds to support younger generations. To the contrary, many of these people fear losing their job just before retirement so choose risk-averse behavior. At the same time, unlike in the village, the juniors are not their relatives so that is also not incentivizing any positive behavior.
And yes there are of course very nice people who are the exception, but from what I’ve seen they are truly the exception. As Charlie Munger put it “Well, I think I’ve been in the top 5% of my age cohort all my life in understanding the power of incentives, and all my life I’ve underestimated it. And never a year passes but I get some surprise that pushes my limit a little farther.”
Worth noting that the relations to elder is really getting rocky, and people are rethinking them in both directions.
We can't hide from the influence the elder generations had on the current situation. Japan is a developed nation with a crazy low crime rate and incredible infrastructure thanks to them. It's also a social mess and the poster child of stagnation thanks to them.
This whole trading card game surfaces both sides of the coin, with what these people are bringing to the community and also why small kids shouldn't look to much upon them as it's a recipe for trouble.
Japan always does the hard thing. If someone misbehaves and two people are close by you can be sure that they loudly will talk with each other about how the person misbehaves (they are not afraid). The prisons are very strict, with beatings if you don’t follow authority. The police acts swiftly and have small offices everywhere . Green tea and healthy food makes people be able to control their mood (hard to not stuff your face).
The rules are very open and clear. The deincentives for misconduct are strong.
The newspapers focus are different. More fun or actionable news.
People just think they are built different, that is not the case. They just succeed with many small things that makes a greater whole. But people just dismiss it as a culture thing, which is reductive.
> If someone misbehaves and two people are close by you can be sure that they loudly will talk with each other
This is the exact opposite of my experience (and all my Japanese friends). They will stare at the person misbehaving but will absolutely not challenge him. Their culture is "avoid the problem/confronting at all costs".
> The police acts swiftly
They are considered tax thieves, even by Japanese people. Also, talk to some foreign women that got sexually harassed or even raped how the police helped them. In fact, I don't have proof, but I sincerely believe that if the police was trained well, crime rate would increase because they would find more crimes.
> healthy food
Are we talking about deep-fried food? Or perhaps over-salted dishes? Oh, no, you meant the sugar they add in basically all their cooking? Time where they mostly ate fish and rice is over. They barely eat enough vegetables. And fruits are for the well-off only.
It's a country that I love and have spent quite some time there—and more to come—but your observations are exactly the opposite of what I saw.
What they do correctly is the low unemployment rate, though I think it's starting to rise with younger people. People don't need to commit violent crimes to feed themselves if any work lets them afford necessities.
I think they are opposite because when I say police acts swiftly, you turn around and say that they are tax thieves. They can both be true?
Healthy food. Yes they eat healthy and their BMI shows it. I find it quite ludicrous to think their restaurants represent what they eat on daily basis. Proof is in the pudding (BMI). Yes it is getting worse and I hope American tariffs will help in this regard. Again, healthy living AND getting worse can both be true, especially with people that are friendly with cultures they want to know more about (many, but still a small subset).
Not sure why Violent crime would be better than non-violent crime for feeding your kids. But the narrative that is pushed heavily in media is the equal sign between poor and criminal, instead of the correlation, which again is reductive. Why? Is there anger? What food do trigger it? What mindset?
My grandparents where very poor (as in oat porridge for weeks poor). They would never hurt a fly. In certain minds that would have been a weakness, in certain minds it’s self sacrifice and equal strength.
Most want to be the wolf among the sheep. It is US greatest strength and greatest weakness at the same time.
I think it's more likely that social pressure to control people's weights is responsible for Japan's low BMI, not anything to do with the food. Japan is the land of vending machines and convenience stores. It's easy to eat junk food all day if you want to. But people will notice you getting fat, and unlike in Western countries they're likely to criticize you for it.
We tend to hit a Goodhart’s Law situation, where focusing on weight and BMI comes at the expense of actual health. That's how we get eating disorders and other mental health issues as well, so as usual it's complicated.
Assuming you are actually from the US, your point feels a lot like system justification[1] theory hard at work... If close to 50% (or even more) people around you have moderate to serious weight issues, I can imagine how you end up normalising the status quo, looking for explanations that rationalise it...
FWIW if you're on a trip it might counter-balance: you might be more active with fewer idle time, and the local food might also be harder to fully process. I saw that on a Spain trip where it made absolutely no sense I didn't gain weight touring tapas places for a week.
Also some anecdata, but I think it depends so much on the person: I gained 10 kilograms by living more than a year in Japan.
I ate healthily so I wasn't fat by any means (in fact, I'm really skinny), but I ate so much that I think this is the reason I gained some weight. I ate a lot of rice (my rice portion was usually more than a Japanese person's entire plate).
Every time I'm in japan I walk far more than I do while in the US. I also end up going up stairs a lot more than I ever need to in the US. Good public transportation makes a huge difference.
I'm euro and runner/cyclist so I doubt that was a factor. I also had my bicycle with me for some rides on off days, but it wasn't beyond my usual mileage. Maybe even less, because riding road bike in Tokyo was an experience that made me realise how good I've it back home. Surroundings hills are nice, but getting out of the city sucks big time.
BMI is mostly useless metric when comparing genetically diverse cohorts. Weight gain is mostly in fat and that is proportional to fat cell count. There is a saying "nerve cells are born and die, but fat - lives forever". The truth to it is that at an adult age fat cell count is mostly constant and mostly genetic. As you get fatter you don't produce more fat cells, they just get fatter, pun intended.
There is huge genetic diversity between geographic regions / ethnic lineages in this regard. On one end you have northern european / african lineages, on the other end you have far east lineages, with other lineages somewhere in between, with northern european / african lineages having the largest fat cell counts, east asians the lowest. Furthermore, north european / african lineages tend to have fat distribution much more biased towards subcutaneous fat, whereas east asian lineages are biased towards abdominal fat, so many of the problems associated with high body fat (not insulin resistance) are seen at lower body fat percentages in east asian lineages.
On top of that, body fat percentage does not map to BMI. BMI may roughly linearly scale with body fat percentage around the "healthy" region, however there will be huge offset between genetic cohorts, including sex.
You should expect east asian BMIs to be lower across the board given similarly "unhealthy" diets.
Not the person you responded to, but this is a topic that fascinates me; do you have any resource to learn more about that? One that explains in average human terms would be appreciated!
Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by "swift".
> I find it quite ludicrous to think their restaurants represent what they eat on daily basis
I have lived with 2 different Japanese family (one younger, one older) and I was referring to the younger one when writing my previous comment. You say that restaurant doesn't represent what they eat, but again this is not my observation; restaurants and prepared meal (bento) are socheap—price-to-purchasing-power compared to Western countries—that many people don't even cook for themselves. So yes, it's absolutely relevant.
> Not sure why Violent crime would be better than non-violent crime for feeding your kids
I never said it was. But hunger definitely makes you more violent and more irrational. I excluded non-violent crimes because people usually exclude those when thinking about a country's safety. There are a lot of scams in Japan, for example.
> They would never hurt a fly.
Most people would never hurt someone. Most people are lawful. But most criminals are not from well-off families and grew up needy. Perhaps there is a causation, perhaps not.
> But most criminals are not from well-off families and grew up needy.
Petty or to-some-extent violent criminals. White collar criminals, the worse kind of criminal, usually come from good/rich/powerful families (I'm generally speaking, not talking about Japan specifically)
If you think sugar added to everything is a Japan phenomenon oh boi, time to travel.
As someone that lived there, frankly your take come off as the typical "English teacher/exchange student that lived in Tokyo and spend too much time on r/japanlife" and think Tokyo represent the average.
> If you think sugar added to everything is a Japan phenomenon oh boi, time to travel.
You're not refuting my argument.
> As someone that lived there, frankly your take come off as the typical "English teacher/exchange student that lived in Tokyo and spend too much time on r/japanlife" and think Tokyo represent the average.
That's very condescending of you and again not refuting my claims at all. Do most of your colleagues eat their own dishes? Don't they add a helluva lot sugar and salt to everything? Hell, even Japanese-made Western desserts taste way too sweet.
I think you could be a bit kinder and not resort to personal attacks.
Edit: it's true that I lived in Tokyo, but unfortunately it's a country that contains 4 cities that get more dense by the day at the cost of unpopulated rural areas.
The poison is in the amount, not in the substance. Salty or sweet food is completely fine if you don’t eat a ton every day. You actually need salt, it is much more dangerous to not consume enough of it.
Most people are dying of heart diseases and guess their causes...
Japanese elderly don't even drink the broth of ramen otherwise they may literally die (not my words).
Edit: sugar we don't really need to survive (trace amounts found in fruits and vegetables is basically enough) and salt maximum daily recommended amount is around 3g. Do you know how much salt a tablespoon of soy sauce contains?
I totally understand what you mean, however the vast majority of the population isn't even close to being hydrated properly so you're just taking an extreme example to make your point.
Talk about reductive, but also wrong. Not being racist, for example, is the harder option for most people, and not the one encouraged in Japan.
Another one: Japan still has children growing up in orphanages because it is considered weird to take in someone else’s child.
Office life is 50% time spent correctly pandering to your bosses feelings, and they have made so little effort to include women in the workforce and make parenting compatible with a good job that nobody wants to have kids.
This is about as deep of analysis of Japan as the Ghibli AI avatars are "art".
> If someone misbehaves and two people are close by you can be sure that they loudly will talk with each other about how the person misbehaves
This is just straight up fan-fiction, and absolutely not how the society here operates. You will get stared at. People will move aside, maybe. That's the extent of reaction from the public you can expect.
> The police acts swiftly and have small offices everywhere .
The "small offices"/kobans are more than useless for any actual "crime". They're quite useful in reporting that you lost a wallet/keys, but good luck when having any actual problems that need to be reported. Goes doubly so for areas where there's elevated chance of actual crimes happening — interacting with cops in Kabukicho has to be one of the least useful activities on the planet.
> The prisons are very strict, with beatings if you don’t follow authority.
And this is... a good thing? We have wildly different moral systems if you think that.
> Green tea and healthy food makes people be able to control their mood (hard to not stuff your face).
"Green tea and healthy food" is, frankly, an even stupider argument than "they're built different". Yes, it's the diet that makes the society more conformist, sure, why not.
There's many great, and many not-so-great things about Japan — why do these arguments online always just start with the most basic, surface level, inane pseudoanalysis?
”had significant positive effects on brainwaves, salivary cortisol, and self-reported state anxiety compared to the placebo in response to an acute stress challenge. These changes are indicative of relaxation in the brain and suggest a calming response in a moderately stressed but otherwise healthy population”
n=16. This isn't even worthy of classifying as a Phase I trial. Efficacy studies generally _start_ at n=100. Drawing any conclusions on efficacy from this kind of sample size is simply unscientific.
Because it’s not that it is used to attack people that are different, but it is used to deincentive bad behaviour, but by conflating the two you end up in a bad place, where incentives are…misaligned.
It seems to me Japan does just fine by having rules and sticking to their culture.
Many people admire Japanese culture. But they wouldn't have anything to admire had Japanese people not conserving and caring greatly about their culture and sticking to their rules and ways of life.
I probably won't be integrating in the Japanese culture, but I admire and respect it and the fact they still have that culture.
It used to be that elders were few and far between, as the population pyramid was, well, a pyramid.
The other day I joked in conversation that I raise my daughters to disrespect the elderly - particularly my generation in the future - as considering the fertility rates (worse than in Japan) in the region, there will be plenty of elderly compared to younger generations.
I'm only half joking really. My own parents are reaching the age at which they would use some help every now and then. I have two siblings, so it doesn't take huge individual effort from any of us.
Meanwhile I'm the only one there who has children and most likely that will remain the case. Should they feel any obligation to help my siblings once the time comes?
I'm going more for "screw just old people". Nowhere in my parenting there's even a mention of family being a burden - well, the younger part at least.
Anyway, again, half-joking here - I'm not actively pursuing this approach, just not nudging them towards the traditional one.
I spent some years in Italy, where the younger generations are absolutely squeezed by the presence of a huge population of elderly. It went to such bizarre extremes where my one Italian friend not only doesn't own a home being in his 40s now, whereas both of his divorced parents each have their own properties, his salary is lower than his father's pension. Kids are of course out of the question.
My country is speedrunning this same scenario and the only thing preventing it from happening now is considerably lower life expectancy compared to Italy.
That's the same thing in France, where on average a retiree has a higher pension than a worker. Workers whose one third of gross salary goes to pensions, then at least another of net salary is paid for rent to live in a property often owned by the previous generation. It's very depressing environment to live in.
Every social norm will be exploited until it becomes a threat to existence. Right now the olds are exploiting their protected status to outright exterminate the younger generations. I will be down voted because the truth is too bitter for most to swallow. This happens close to all of us and isn't some bogeyman foreign/domestic politician or other convenient scapegoat.
I believe some resentment towards the elderly is unavoidable given the circumstances. Its unfortunate, but understandable. Looking at my own family, my mother inherited the family property after my father died. She has never had any officially payed job since her 30s. In the last 40 years, she has only lived off pension, and hasn't put anything back into the system. Meanwhile, I have worked 25 years straight now, and still don't have enough money to buy a decent apartment in the city where I work. I am guessing the perceived unfairness of this "pyramid" is going to make a lot more people unhappy in the future. Certainly, compared to my mother, my life feels like I am a drone. Not being female is a huge disadvantage these days. I mean, a pension for being married to a man who died? Alimony when the spouse leaves? All things males can only dream of. And, the incentives are all wrong. My mother didn't take on any official jobs because she would loose some of the pension she gets. So, its better to just suck every drop of blood you can out of the welfare state, instead of thinking about how the system actually works and that it needs people to put in effort so that others that really need it can take things out...
If my wife dies first I get half her pension, if I die first my wife gets half my pension.
If we divorce assets are spread equally. Kids complicate things a bit, the person who owes the kids get paid by the other one. As I have a far more flexible job (I do after school care etc) it’s likely I’d keep the kids and thus would be paid child support.
Things suck for the “young” (sub 45 nowadays). Despite what Andrew Tate and his ilk tells you this is nothing to do with gender. It’s to do with every increasing ownership of the wealth by the wealthiest.
First of all, great that you seem to have a relatively equal situation. It reads like your wife is actually working. Good for you.
However, your accusation is totally wrong and uncalled for. I know the name, but I have never read/heard anything from the Tate brothers. In fact, my opinion about female priviledge in our society stems purely from my own experience, in particular my mother. This is something I'd like to have (make and female) feminists understand. All I need to be resentful of female priviledge is my own mother and her spite and her totally lack of humility. Much of backlash towards feminism is self-inflicted. We don't need hateful men to tell us what to think about female priviledge. All we need is our own eyes. Not all women are shining examples of rationality and empathy. Maybe feminists should start by working on/with the bad apples in their own circles.
Fact is, my mother owns way more then I do, despite actually only having worked roughly 5 years in her whole life. All she owns was built up by men in the family of my father. And she inherited everything, including the priviledge of not having to go to work. If I could, I'd step into her shoes every day. And she doesnt even realize her priviledge, which is insulting.
This is just one example of the elderly spitting on the young, sometimes without even noticing. This tension is going to increase in the future even more.
This sounds like a personal issue you have with your own mother that you are desperately trying to extrapolate onto the rest of society. Taking one selfish woman and using it to demonise all women and even the concept of feminism is quite silly.
> Much of backlash towards feminism is self-inflicted.
Self-inflicted by non-feminists?
> We don't need hateful men to tell us what to think about female priviledge.
The sad thing is there are actual issues and there is a kernel of truth to the feeling that men are discriminated against in some cases (as of course are women - and let’s not go anywhere near transgender people) and life isn’t blind to gender - especially when it comes to custody decisions, but also in areas like justice and crime (are jail populations 50:50?), educational outcomes (boys do worse than girls), mental health (check suicide figures)
Sadly posters like this do so much damage to equality discourse that it’s unlikely to ever equalise until this vitriol is lost in the past like the prejudice to left handed people was.
> my life feels like I am a drone
> Not being female is a huge disadvantage these days.
> All things males can only dream of.
Are you saying that the same dynamic do not occur when gender roles are reversed (pops stayed home while mom worked; mom does, pops gets house and pension)? No disrespect intended, but you might want to find someone to help you unpack and process these things you’re saying; no good will come of projecting on to gender dynamics and letting resentment fester.
I prefer to frame it as “help the younger generations” rather than “screw old people”.
I saw my parents, especially my mom, waste their youth taking care of two people who lived to near 100 years old, and I don’t want to see my kids waste their time and resources on me.
I mean, the model the current soon-to-be old people (boomers) operated on is exactly "screw everyone coming after me", so considered on the whole they deserve every bit of cold shoulder.
That doesn't mean that every boomer is bad of course, so if you have good (grand)parents, be good to them!
> Should they feel any obligation to help my siblings once the time comes?
Absolutely not, but hopefully your siblings will have been positive enough presences in your children's lives that they will want to of their own accord.
It's even less that we move around a lot more; technology advanced with the personal computer and Internet such that kids see adults not knowing things about the world that they already do. What is decades of personal lived experience wisdom when there's tiktok and YouTube and chatbots?
In the US we are at all time lows for internal migration. Or at least very close to them, I haven’t checked those stats in a couple years since this last came up on HN.
We used to (as a population) migrate to opportunity far more than we do now.
For many reasons there is simply far less community engagement and integration going on. Fewer people put down strong “roots” in their communities these days.
Thats surprising, I thought moving was less common than now. In either case, is it possible that the single households is the other factor, people choosing more instead of interacting with whoever is around?
International migration has increased over time, although still representing a very small segment of the population. Presumably that is mostly people fleeing terrible situations (e.g. war torn areas). When you are in a stable country, it doesn't matter so much where in the country you are.
When? In my grandparents generation (born late 1800s to early 1900s) moving to either try to start a farm in the US or to leave a failing farm for a job in town at the local whatever factory was very common.
Post WW2 for the boomers was loaded with people flooding to all kinds of industrial boom cities.
After that it was hollowing out of the rust belt and moving out of cities to suburbs due to the lead/crime epidemic.
Then rich cities boomed back with millennials in a continuous feedback loop where the successful ones became more desirable as money brought attractions/activities/restaurants, draining the failing ones even more.
Then 2020 was the brief mega disruption where people thought the internet might catch on and they found out the vast majority of white collar jobs can be done from home so the fanned out to all of the nice and cheap suburbs, mountain towns, etc. Now the Internet fad has worn off so that’s reversing a bit.
Moving in the US has been very common until this brief lull where you could change jobs without relocating thanks to remote work.
Unfortunately we’re going backwards so it wouldn’t surprise me if constant relocation resumes.
The main factor that you fail to mention is living cost, and not the internet, which made it possible and desirable to frequently move in search of opportunity.
It didn't mean there weren't people that lived long-term in communities. However, it did mean that you could find more lucrative opportunities in different places while also affording to move and live there.
That began to slowly change in the 60's, beginning with the death of single occupancy residences and a lack of funding/investment in affordable housing for a significant portion of income brackets.
The last 30ish years helped cement that for lots of reasons, but the ability to work remotely via the internet isn't particularly new nor causative for that change.
> However, it did mean that you could find more lucrative opportunities in different places while also affording to move and live there.
Same as now. The data clearly shows more job opportunity in rural areas (not all rural areas) and more affordable living to go along with it. But we haven't (yet) reached the dire situation where the people actually have to make the move like previous generations found themselves in. Most people won't leave family and friends behind unless they feel they are out of options.
People moving in search of opportunity back then weren’t doing it because it was easier. It meant giving up your family and friends far more so than now because of the lack of internet. An out of state move meant a handful of letters a year was the level of contact you were in for and that was only for close family.
Living cost was a big barrier back then (except maybe the homesteading) too. Any time someone is leaving a poor outlook to a more booming area it usually means cost of living is going up.
> but the ability to work remotely via the internet isn't particularly new nor causative for that change
It absolutely was the first time any non-trivial percentage of work was remote. More importantly, the spike meant 15% of the population became eligible to leave an expensive city that sucked during the lockdowns. https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/2024/dec/trends-wo...
There is most definitely affordable housing all over the US. People are just both picky and lacking opportunity in the cheaper places. Remote work was the fix for the latter part so downplaying that is missing the point.
If you have a remote job and just want to live in NYC because of culture, then you have no leg to stand on when complaining about housing. It’s purely a luxury decision at that point.
> That began to slowly change in the 60's, beginning with the death of single occupancy residences
Specifically the “average annual homeownership rates since 1964”. Right below it has a snapshot of rates by state and the difference tells you everything you need to know.
Housing is only broken in the top desired areas and remote work gave you the opportunity to get a good job while leaving those.
There was a news article few months ago, about waiting times for healthcare (in the UK, if I remember correctly). One govt official commented something like older people having to wait longer to see physicians is "not a priority". I was stunned reading it, didn't even know how to react.
It is nice to read articles like this. I wish more humans looked at other humans beyond their youth, looks and their net worth
I've been taught to respect the elders. But now I've seen that there are enough of them which aren't honest, good people, but only know how to present themselves in a positive light, while looking down on the ones they live with.
I now stand neutral against them: they may be good, they may not be. There's nothing in their age which makes them deserve more respect than the one younger people deserve.
So do you respect 12-year-olds as much as you respect 25-year-olds? Do you respect the opinions on work and adult responsibilities of a 23-year-old as much as those of a 35-year-old? Do you trust the professional judgment of a junior engineer as much as that of a senior engineer?
Older people, in general, know more and have better judgment than younger people.
You're conflating age with wisdom - a common fallacy when charisma is valued over education, leading to Septuagenarian Heads of State ruling on partisan lines rather than Technocratic and egalitarian governance.
My dad got a guy assigned to his farm once from the unemployment office once. Guy was in third generation unemployed. Tried to bribe himself out of shovelling shit, but my father wouldn't take the money. The tales a 90 year old person made redundant by society and thus avoiding society must have to tell. Stay a while and listen..
My takeaway of the cool dynamic at work here is that universally (but particularly in Japan) no one wants to be seen promoting themselves. Especially for older people they've done so many cool things, and are currently doing cool things now that they're retired and have free time, but socially it's a bit awkward to just ask, what cool and interesting stuff can you tell me about.
And the physical / game medium helps connect intergenerationally as well. But actually I could see this kind of trading card dynamic working in other situations like business networking or speed dating or something.
in ~2012 i was in Tokyo, and by chance was (also) invited to someone's birthday.. The guy was working as pizzeria-waiter, and has invited.. all his usual clients to his birthday - in his small apartment, with "everyone brings some food they made" instead of gifts. My friend was a client.. so i landed there too. That was the most bizarre mix of people there. Some were just mom-and-pop. Some were millionaires. And everything in between. Most were japanese, but also from about 3-4 diff. countries. And everyone talking with everyone else as equal..
a very interesting cross-section - and should i say glimpse-of-future - of society.
I hope the people don't get too much pressure to up their stats.
>The rarity of a card isn’t based on fantasy stats — it’s tied to real-world contributions. The more actively the ojisan engages in volunteer work or community service, the higher the chances of their card being upgraded to a shiny version with a glossy laminated effect.
I'm a bit reminded of the cards Harry and Ron find in their chocolate frog packaging, each of which features a picture of a famous wizard, some historical, some contemporary like Albus Dumbledore. The kids had a chance of actually meeting some of the heroes pictured on their cards.
For real. This is the best thing I’ve seen on HN in a long time. My kids are very into these card collections/games and I told them about it and they thought it was a great idea to put “normal” people on these cards. Super great story and concept. Japan isn’t perfect, but some amazing things come from their society.
This is such a cynical, keyboard-warrior take. Why do you feel the need to drag down someone else's positive and impactful contribution? No one is stopping you from creating a card game with women as the heroes.
The article makes it clear that this was the passion project of Eri Miyahara, Secretary General of the local council and a woman herself. Though I'm sure you had noble intentions with this comment, it ignores the professional judgement that led her to create this game and turns her efforts into "merely assisting men to become heroes."
Elderly men are more vulnerable to suicide die to lack of social connections. So it makes sense for a project that fosters social connections to prioritize men.
“Good morning! Are you up?” asks the fisherman in the video, to which the user replies “Yes, thanks to you. Are you on your ship?” “Yeah, I got up at 3, so I’m already on the sea,” he replies, before adding “I caught a really big fish.”
I’m not sure how much demand there is for this product, but that really brought a smile to my face.
I don’t speak Japanese but I would pay for this. Trying to get up and run before 6 is a chore. Having a fisherman wake up call would be awesome and motivating. Especially for someone who loves fishing.
I found Wakie[1] in 2015 while on a project in London. Every morning at a specific time you set, a stranger (real person and no AI) would call you and talk to you briefly, waking you up. I used it for about a month.
There was always a different caller. One thing I vividly remember was when I found it really hard to understand a pretty heavy Scottish accent. I'm not random-social enough to be talking to new people every day, but it was a fun experience. Fun for that short interval but not really my type of thing.
But AI is like video games, it can’t emulate sacrifice and other deep human dynamics because there’s no stake. If you die you restore from last save point. For AI you have infinite no-memory interactions, which changes the dynamic. In other words, your actions don’t have lasting consequences.
The few games that succeed in building something deeper (for me RDR2 but you take your pick) have to carve out sacrifice and character out of the player’s time, which is finite.
Well said. If I signed up for this and I knew it was AI calls, I would likely not pick up. But if I knew it was a person calling me, there's a much stronger emotional incentive to pick up and talk to them.
The cards are exemplary. Any Ojisan[0] featured on a card should feel honored. I looked at the cards shown to us and immediately was struck by the artists ability to both see the beauty in these fine people and deliver it on the card in a compelling, clearly respectful way.
And the motive! It is simple and noble: Elevating Town Fathers in the eyes of those for whom they often serve.
The idea is pure,[1] uncluttered by unnecessary detail and expectations. The only real complication came from the kids, who naturally wanted the game aspect to make the whole thing fun!
Of course they did.
Humans being beautiful. That is what this is and as much as I want this sort of thing where I live, I know it would not be this organic thing of beauty and that makes me sad. I am not sure enough of us here have what is needed.
I am definitely sharing today. What a delightful story!
[0] Capitalized because local heroes
[1] Pure is the word I use in this context. There may be better ones. Please share.
> I feel this is one of those times we would learn Germans have a dead on word like they often do.
Yeah but it would be 72 characters long, being composed out of 6 different words difficult on their own (I know German a bit, and some words I have to read in my head loudly to see where they break into subparts)
I remember as a young kid living in Norway, there'd be the "russefeiring"[0] around May where students finishing their final semester will don a brightly colored overall and cause mayhem in the town. I remember getting shot a lot with water guns. Anyway, one thing that is pretty fun about that tradition is that the students print cards for themselves with a picture and fun facts etc and hand them out to all the little kids, and we'd trade them between ourselves to have the whole collection of students.
I still remember decades and decades ago hearing about vending machines in Japan. Someone mentioned going to Japan and how you could get cold cans of coffee out of vending machines there. This was sometime in the 1990s, before even Starbucks was a huge thing. Everyone I knew thought the idea of cold coffee was ridiculous, a quirk of the Japanese that would never catch on.
I feel the Japanese have been pretty good at exporting culture, but it has a lot of misses among the few hits. I wonder if this is something that would catch on outside of Japan.
David Lynch's Twin Peaks commercials for Georgia coffee, featuring almost the entire cast in character and a running subplot of a missing Japanese woman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAxNvhN7UUE
> There's an old tradition of American stars appearing in Japanese television commercials, [...] before downing what appears to be about a four ounce can of Suntory Iced Rainbow Blend coffee.
Was this tradition referenced or inspired by Bill Murray's "Suntory Time" scene in "Lost in Translation" (2003)?
> Anyone who has seen Sofia Coppola’s Lost in Translation must wonder for at least a second if there is truth in Bill Murray’s character of a famous American actor in Japan to film a commercial. Well, there definitely is. Huge American and European stars have been hawking products in Japanese commercials for decades.
And vending machines with hot drinks and soups, my favorite being cream of corn soup...which I have yet to see stateside.
Another thing Japan had before the US was texting on your phone. I was living in Japan at the time and recall telling my American friend who worked as a Manager at ATT about texting and she thought it was the dumbest thing she had ever heard of.
First trip to Japan, I selected what I thought was a local cherry Coke equivalent from the vending machine. I was more than a little surprised to get a can that was a) hot, and b) contained not cherry-flavored cola, but chunky sweet red bean soup (oshikuro).
> And vending machines with hot drinks and soups, my favorite being cream of corn soup...which I have yet to see stateside.
Its a cultural thing I am sure. As an American I will say that prepared food served from a vending machine is going to be associated with low quality and possible poor hygiene. I'd equate it with food from a gas station store or roach coach (mobile canteen)- food prepared with little care or quality, destined to be sold for as little as possible while still being profitable. Stale bread, wilted vegetables, low quality meats, cheese, etc, sloppy prep. Who cares, ship it.
On the other hand, I can see food vendors in Japan guarding their reputation with attention to their craft ensuring quality.
> As an American I will say that prepared food served from a vending machine is going to be associated with low quality and possible poor hygiene.
The grandparent post is talking about canned food/drink that's heated in the machine. Vending machines with freshish prepared food do exist, but they're kinda pointless given the existence of...
> I'd equate it with food from a gas station store or roach coach (mobile canteen)- food prepared with little care or quality, destined to be sold for as little as possible while still being profitable
Convenience store food in Japan is fantastic: food from 7/11, Lawson, Family Mart, etc. is probably unironically better than the median restaurant in the U.S.
Indeed. Spent a few weeks there last year. You can't throw a rock and not hit one of those places - it's absurd how many there are no matter where you are. Though, TBF in NYC the density of convenience stores/bodegas is similar but the consistency lacking. I do miss those gooey chocolate babka things they sell in the 7-11s.
> is probably unironically better than the median restaurant in the U.S.
Eh... I would say they certainly beat out fast food.
The foods sold in vending machines make sense though - everyone's already used to instant or canned soup, so throwing it into a vending machine and warming it up makes sense. You're not getting fine dining from the vending machines, you're just getting a quick and tasty snack (although there is also a culture of niche vending machines with serious meals that require cooking at home, which is another story). Just swap out the corn potage with something Americans would already be familiar with, like Campbell's chicken noodle soup in a single-portion can with a twist cap instead of needing a can opener, and it could work.
I think some Americans might object more to the idea of microplastics leaching into your food, or high amounts of preservatives, though. And the ubiquity of vending machines in Japan makes it possible to build a habit around vending machine food, whereas in the US they're fewer and far between, so you couldn't really depend on them.
> The foods sold in vending machines make sense though - everyone's already used to instant or canned soup, so throwing it into a vending machine and warming it up makes sense.
The US used to have much more diverse vending machine offerings, including prepared hot foods and drinks, but they started to disappear in the 1970s, though you could find stragglers into the 1990s in older institutional settings (e.g. government buildings), especially for drinks--coffee, hot cocoa, etc. As previously mentioned, I think they fell out of favor because they began to be considered very poor quality (it's a death spiral if turnover doesn't happen fast enough), perhaps as compared to increasingly popular drive-thru alternatives. I guess in a way it was a result of our car culture. Like with the demise of cafeterias generally[1], Americans preferred to jump in their car rather than choosing from what was available within walking distance.
[1] A wall of vending machines selling sandwiches, salads, soups, and hot drinks constituted a "cafeteria" in many buildings.
People always forget something, when talking about Japanese vending machines: vandalism. Vandalism is relatively uncommon in Japan, whereas it's sadly endemic in most Western societies.
Yup, there was one! that I was aware when I worked at an 8000 employee IBM facility 20 years ago. It was novel to be able to get hot burgers out of it.
I was living in Australia in 2000 and texting was more common than calling because it was cheaper to text than call. But in the US it was the opposite. You had unlimited calling, but plans around that time had a different pricing scheme for texting (can't remember the exact details) so could be one reason why it took the US a bit longer to finally pick up texting. I remember it was about a year or 2 later that I felt texting started to become more common in the US.
Yeah, I lived in Europe in 1999 and 2000 and then moved to the US. In the EU you could text people from different countries and it would often work.
Then I moved to the US and the shock of not being able to text between networks was really something. That and writing cheques. I'd never written a cheque in Australia or Europe but you sort of had to in the US while electronic payments between banks were sorted in Australia in the 1990s.
These days it seems when a technology appears it generally spreads more quickly.
My first cell phone bill was like $600 because my gf at the time used a different carrier. This was also back in the olden days of unlimited texting!! (Only after 9pm)
Facebook was big partly early on at places like CMU because unis were early adopters of ubiquitous wifi -- so FB messenger served as a free texting tool back when you'd have people tell you to put their last name as NOTEXT.
Emoji is a Japanese thing too. It's why a lot of the early emoji are kind of odd from a western point of view, like the naruto fish cake, Japanese top secret emoji and hot bath symbol.
Well, it's called "Emoji" (絵文字, literally "picture character/letter") for a reason ;) Weird how it's often misunderstood as being derived from "emotion" in western media.
It's not that weird. In English we had a similar idea called emoticons, which started as ascii/your local encoding and then evolved to be pictures. When emoji hit the masses, it was only natural to assume the two were related.
The really novel thing about those vending machines is that they do both hot and cold drinks. A vending machine technician realised that the hot side of the refrigeration unit could be used for something practical rather than just disposing of the heat through a radiator.
Better than that is the Japanese 'Boss', which even comes in a very-Japanese steel tin. Great coffee that you can now get at most Australian servos, convenience stores, etc.
As a New Zealander who's been to Australia + a small handful of other countries I can vouch for Australia having a uniquely good convenience store dairy based drink industry. OAK is another old faithful brand I miss in NZ. Also Hungry Jacks (Burger King) there uses cream instead of milk in the soft serve and it's noticeably better.
The $1 coffee from 7-11 was my go-to drink in Australia. Came with the added bonus of annoying the hipster coffee snobs in melbourne when I was walking down the street holding a 7-11 cup. Damn fine coffee.
7-11 has surprisingly good coffee in the US too, or at least Texas. There was a 7-11 on the corner of the block I use to live on and drive past to get to Starbucks until I was running late once and decided to just grab the first coffee available. Now if I just want plain brewed coffee I'll find a 7-11. And if I'm wanting something more Starbuck-ish but don't want to deal with the morning rush, I'll go to a 7-11 and mix little over half a cup of the brew coffee then top it off with their hot chocolate.
I am not a coffee hipster (as will probably become evident by my next statement) but I do like good cafe coffee here in Melbourne and I completely agree. I don’t make it my daily driver, but 7/11 and even McCafe coffee is quite decent here IMO
Iced coffee in Australia seems to automatically imply sweet with lots of milk (or even ice cream). This is very jarring when you expect the default “iced coffee” to be black coffee over ice.
I agree completely, most iced coffee here from supermarkets is hyper sweetened rubbish that barely tastes like coffee at all. You have to go for “double” or “triple” espresso options to get a proper taste of coffee, otherwise you’re just drinking sweet milk (and not even in the guilty pleasure Vietnamese iced coffee way)
As previously mentioned Boss does do a decent black iced coffee though, and there are a few niche brands around putting out less sweet varieties
> This is very jarring when you expect the default “iced coffee” to be black coffee over ice.
Same reaction I had the first time I ordered a cappuccino there. I learned to order Flat Whites cause I kept forgetting to tell them to not put chocolate powder on top...why anyone thought that would be a great idea is beyond my comprehension. The Flat White on the hand easily makes up for their cappuccino faux pas
_Most_ of the coffee sold in cans in Japan is also sweetened. Not all, you can usually find a can or two that are just black and unsweetened, but a majority of the cans will be sweet to some degree.
> Everyone I knew thought the idea of cold coffee was ridiculous, a quirk of the Japanese that would never catch on.
Iced coffee has been around for centuries and is very common in warmer countries (and was before the 90s). アイスコーヒー is closer to cold brew than the milkshake-esque thing we call iced coffee.
> Someone mentioned going to Japan and how you could get cold cans of coffee out of vending machines there.
They're everywhere!
In rural Hokkaido, some people even have them outside their home's driveway for people walking by. They have various teas (green, hojicha, jasmine, etc.), Coke and Pepsi products, Pocari Sweat (like Gatorade), iced coffees, and sometimes even hot teas and hot coffees that are heated on demand. They're super convenient and something I miss having in America (we seemed to have more of them here in the 90's and early 2000's).
The only problem is that in Japan there can sometimes be absolutely zero public garbage (or, more correctly, recycling) bins in sight. You have to carry your trash with you, which is a bit annoying and mildly gross if it spills.
Pocari Sweat is so good. I always grab a bottle anytime we go to the japanese store outside chicago. I assumed it was a fake anime product like the way they always turn pepsi into bepsi or something, but no it's real and it's delicious.
Aquarius (essentially grapefruit, somewhere between soda and sparkling water) is a bit of an acquired taste. And when my school's Japanese club visited in high school, boy, did we acquire it. Lots of "Pocari Sweat" and "Calpis" double entendres flying around, too.
> You have to carry your trash with you, which is a bit annoying and mildly gross if it spills.
True, but it also means that most people are used to this and don’t even question it. Which means no overflowing garbage bins or the need to service them in the middle of nowhere.
The bins near vending machines are almost always _only_ for cans/plastic bottles.
That accounts for ~80% of the garbage you'll produce, but sometimes you'll have a onigiri wrapper, or a dirty tissue that'd be nice to get rid of, and finding a place to do that can be more difficult (ironically, especially so in heavily touristy areas).
My first thought when I read this was, "This is very Japanese, and nothing like it would ever happen in America." Americans and Japanese are poles apart in the ways they relate to their communities, older generations, etc.
it may well be "cold brew", a coffee specialty that is some work to make at home and that has a very distinguished taste and contrast coffee that was brewed hot and then cooled down.
Town celebrates its own via a medium that the youth seek out on their own. The youth then forge closer connections with their elders. Everyone is happy, everyone wins.
Putting on my Product Manager hat, the best product launches often focus on a single well-defined persona, as this one apparently did. Now that this is proven to work, they can expand to middle-aged women, older people, younger people, animals and what have you. But I think that this is a great start.
That's a needlessly uncharitable interpretation, but it is an interesting point.
I think that increased rates of low (and high) grade neurodivergence in men, and society expecting eccentric behavior from men, especially as they age, results in in the sort of characters that make something like this work. Umarells in Italy come to mind.
There's quite a few assumptions in your comment; one, that men have higher grades of neurodivergece than women (whereas it can also be underdiagnosis or masking through higher societal expectations on women). Women are eccentric too.
This is a well-known fact with a well-established genetic basis. For pretty much any trait, the standard deviation of the distribution for men is larger than the distribution for women.
If there are studies that prove this, can i see them? And are there equivalent studies on populations of women? Or is this a Kodak situation where there’s just at best an assumption based on existing biases?
In Japan, men commit suicide at roughly twice the rate of women. The age group with the highest rate of suicide was 50-59. I can't find good data, but loneliness and not feeling valued by a community is very likely a significant contributor here.
Women are important but if the problem you're trying to solve is deaths of despair, then focusing on men makes sense.
Suicide among men is ~4x higher in Canada and the USA in some demographics, too. In some cases, such as men 80+, the rate is 6.5x higher in Canada. This is crazy sad. It doesn't mean other things affecting women aren't sad. It just means this is sad.
"We wanted to strengthen the connection between the children and the older generations in the community. There are so many amazing people here. I thought it was such a shame that no one knew about them."
Older people being forgotten and unknown seems relevant to me.
And Japanese people are well aware of this, there is definitely a common youth cultural appreciation of goofy middle-aged men here beyond what I was used to growing up in the USA.
Well, evidenced by the fact that these aren't even white men, and we have no evidence that anybody in the community in question are actually offended or feeling disempowered except for righteous social justice warriors like yourself, this comes off as screeching from someone who just wants to push their agenda.
And before you call me a sexist MAGA patriarchal asshole, not only am I liberal, but I actually live in Japan and interact with the local culture here all day every day. I speak the local langauge, am married to a local, have local friends and in fact talk about and interact with ojisans on a very regular basis, because it is a cultural touchpoint that is relevant here. Do you?
I am sick and tired of annoying people like you co-opting every discussion to push a specific victim-mindset zero-sum world view, reducing everything to your race and sex struggle without actually lifting a finger to, say, do things that actually affect outcomes in society besides pissing people off—unlike the people who set up this lighthearted card game, which is demonstrably bringing a community together. Not everywhere is the USA, let alone your toxic online ragebait bubble. What you are doing is repelling people from your cause more than helping it, myself included.
Please do some soul searching and if you really feel a need to irritate people, I would appreciate you do it somewhere else. I hope that your implication that Japanese culture is inferior because it doesn't kowtow to your cultural expectations, has made you feel good today.
The whole thing was an idea of a woman, Eri Miyahara, 45-year-old secretariat head of the Saidosho regional community council, I bet she have her reasons to focus on men, I suspect it's the perceived loneliness of the selected ones.
Interestingly, Japan is in the middle of its own version of Obergefell v. Hodges where several courts have ruled that the ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional and plaintiffs are currently awaiting the consolidated Supreme Court ruling.
Men statistically have fewer social connections and suffer more from loneliness as they get older, so if the goal is to remedy that, it makes sense to start with men first.
It's true for any intelligent species with sexual dimorphism.
However I agree; it's great that the initiative was started for those men, but they could totally hit up the older women in the area as well for an additional set.
If one house is on fire and you spray water on it to put out the fire, do you feel obligated to spray water on every other house too so that the other houses don't feel discriminated against?
It’s funny to me that the honest intent of my comment was merely “that’s neat, it would be cool to expand it to other members of the community” and people go straight to discrimination & indignation. Is it so hard to just express that it’d be cool to take a neat thing and expand it?
Seriously, I think the subtext is that people in the West equate Japanese = sexist (and therefore are an inferior people) and that the choice of focusing on ojisans, is a sexist decision made to degrade women.
When in reality it probably is just a light-hearted decision since old men are goofy, a lot of visible local businesses in rural Japan tend to be run by men, and the concept provoked a laugh.
I'd say the core reason is more that the person who started it was very much likely to be male and had a few existing connections to the group of men featured on the cards.
We should strive for equality where possible but to hold individuals account to it is tougher; we should enforce in our interactions/beliefs, that's personal responsibility.
But in play or for hobbies it's harder - the group of friends I play games with is all male for example (all gay, actually). But does that mean that I need to "diversity hire" a woman for the group? We'd have no problem with that at all, if a female friend asked to join when hearing about it we'd be all for it. But it's not like we're going to go out of our way to ensure that we have at least 1 woman in our play group. If that makes sense.
The article says it was made by a woman. Regardless I don’t agree we need to hold these people accountable for not making female cards, it’s their prerogative to do what they think makes sense or is appealing to them, and choosing ojisans as a theme makes sense if you have experience with Japanese culture because of the vibe associated with it. Not everything needs to be a gender equality culture battle, and I’m pretty confident nobody is feeling disenfranchised because they chose that theme.
>We should strive for equality where possible but to hold individuals account to it is tougher; we should enforce in our interactions/beliefs, that's personal responsibility.
To be clear, you think someone should be held accountable for not including women in this trend? What might that look like? Are we talking about new laws? Changing the values of society somehow so people will independently ostracize? Or just some more coordinated activist effort? What?
>But does that mean that I need to "diversity hire" a woman for the group? We'd have no problem with that at all, if a female friend asked to join when hearing about it we'd be all for it. But it's not like we're going to go out of our way to ensure that we have at least 1 woman in our play group.
Why not ask a woman to join on the basis of wanting to diversify? That seems entirely consistent with your stated values.
Japanese culture has quite a lot of sexism but so do many "western" countries some are better in some ways some are worse in some ways. And divide between "the West" and Japan isn't so huge Japan is fairly westernized in many ways. It's a rich liberal democracy with a lot of similarities to other rich liberal democracies we may label western.
> A lot of visible local businesses in rural Japan tend to be run by men
And you don't think that has anything to do with sexism in society?
If you're referring to me, I don't think the mere observation that it would be fun to expand this to include women is me implying sexism. That honestly was not my intent, which I specifically was addressing in my follow up comment about how sad it is how quickly the responses devolved into sexism arguments.
So there is no problem with excluding women from these trading cards? Just that the entirely optional alternative to include them would be fun?
I would agree with that. Same as it would be fun to include younger people or non-Japanese people. Or dogs. Although it seems pretty random to just include everything that isnt currently the subject of these cards.
I'm not really following what your point is. The context in this case is pretty clearly geared towards connecting people across age generations. In that context, I merely observed that doing that for women would also be interesting. I don't see why you're branching off into random stuff like dogs.
I am equally interested in whether other non-Japanese cultures could do this too, although I suppose its popularity might not generalize across cultures. I don't know. Be interesting to try though, right?
Or is merely suggesting that deserving of some sort of criticism? The whole thing just made me think "why not share a neat thing with other groups". Dunno why that's such a big deal.
How is including dogs random? Its fun. You said you wanted to see women included because it would be fun.
> The context in this case is pretty clearly geared towards connecting people across age generations.
Well no. Its clearly connecting older Japanse men with kids. Which is why your comment about including women isnt non-sensical.
You said you wanted to include women because it would be fun and said your original comment shouldnt be interpreted to imply sexism. That avoids actually saying its not sexist so I could use some clarification now that it seems like its not just all about whats fun.
Do you think there is an element of sexism in excluding women on the trading cards?
Objectification is natural in a species that reproduces via sexual reproduction.
The key is sexually objectifying (recognising an attraction) whilst respecting said individual.
As a gay dude I see _plenty_, _pleeeeeenty_ of women wantonly objectifying men when they choose to, with no repercussions or qualms. It's just unfortunate because of sexual dimorphism and expected behaviours, men are expected to take the more active role most of the time and hence these reprehensible behaviours are more common amongst men.
Would be really fun to be a god and tweak everyone's brains such that heterosexual men take the passive role just to see what happens.
If we're going down this route I feel you should think about how likely it would have been that I got a similar response if I called out the objectification of men.
i needed an "oh, that's really nice" story today. this delivered.
in every way, this seems well-intentioned, quirky, cute, fun, and positive. unless there's some subtext i'm missing, this is just a good and nice thing happening that's great for everyone involved.
There are fundamental differences between Asian cultures and Western ones, particularly in how they view the individual versus the community, and the relationship between the young and the elderly. In many Asian cultures, the community is often placed above the individual, while in the West, individualism tends to take precedence. These perspectives have evolved differently over time, and each has its own advantages and drawbacks—there’s no single “correct” way.
That said, it would definitely be more challenging to implement this kind of community-first mindset in the U.S. or Europe.
This is a superb idea. I had seen random cat gacha but not trading cards of random dudes.
Most efforts at custom TCGs seem to go nowhere at all because of the absence of any practical trading meta game, so bootstrapping that with local interest is a very neat marketing move that aligns very well with the desired community engagement.
The result is that whole idea is greater than the sum of its parts.
Yeah Japanese culture is very, very different from the West. But it also comes with its own set of problems and challenges.
As a gay guy I've always thought about the topic in your last sentence; I agree that male problems (suicide rates, expectations, hypermasculinism etc) get largely ignored, in part due to a tightly integrated hierarchy of social rules and expectations - men (ignoring feelings, emotions, trying to be tough all the time) women (reliance on men, encouraging/supporting hypermasculine behaviours).
I find it both interesting & sad the way that heterosexual (& bisexual, etc) male behaviour completely changes (often for the worse) when a woman walks into the room. I don't see this as much at all in the opposite scenario, though I won't say that gay men don't sometimes exhibit the same aggressive behaviours that straight men often do.
It's just sad to watch men not care about certain aspects of themselves that are deemed weak, and that society has no value for men not attached to a family unit (hence the suicide rate). Also look at rates of homelessness - women are more likely to be taken in/given much more leeway by family etc than men are as a man down on his luck is a "problem" aka useless. It's the same with calling for women to be forced into drafts the same way men are - heterosexual response to that is staggering - the same frequency as the response I get as a man if I say I _don't_ want to fight in a war (aggression, being called a coward, the vitriol received for being a "draft dodger").
I know why it is the way it is, though and unlike many others I never forget that we're all still just animals at our very core.
>get largely ignored, in part due to a tightly integrated hierarchy of social rules and expectations
I think this might change in the future when men realize the social contract reward for it has been reduced to rubble.
>male behaviour completely changes (often for the worse) when a woman walks into the room
I observed this many times and disliked it to the point of acting the reverse (disinterested) which ironically resulted in the opposite outcome at least temporarily. I think it certainly applies to women too but is just less observable because its more passive instead of active. The standard of the average men is also a lot "lower" (actual average) compared to women's to get active.
>I think this might change in the future when men realize the social contract reward for it has been reduced to rubble.
That's a great point but I don't think it ever will. Said social contracts are dictated by our underlying biology and whilst we may adjust or tweak them over time the fundamentals of them will stay the same. But who knows, maybe I'll be surprised and the higher order social rules will completely overcome the lower order animal rules.
> Kids have started attending local events and volunteering for community activities — just for a chance to meet the ojisan from their cards. Participation in town events has reportedly doubled since the game launched.
Kids involved in community seems to be the best result
> A bureaucrat named Kenzaburo Tondabayashi is killed by a passing truck after saving a boy and is reborn in the Otome game Magical Academy: Love & Beast as its villainess, Grace Auvergne. Due to his politeness, he makes Grace's personality change into a more kind person and even becomes friends with the game's heroine, Anna Doll, whom the original Grace is antagonistic towards. Meanwhile, Kenzaburo's original body is revealed to have survived, but he is stuck in a coma. His wife and daughter discover that he is trapped in the game and attempt to help him complete it in hopes of getting him out
This sounds like something straight out of the Yakuza video game series. Which, incidentally, is a series largely focused on middle aged men - I would love a set of these cards with Kiryu, Majima, Saejima, Akiyama, Ichiban, Nanba, Adachi, etc...
As I understand things, in Japanese the terms "onii-san", "ojisan" and "ojii-san" literally translate as "older brother", "uncle" and "grandpa" respectively - and are widely used for people who aren't relatives.
So while the colloquial use of ojisan roughly lines up with "middle-aged man" it's not a perfect mapping.
Ojisan age bracket can be pretty wide, but 81 sounds to me more like an ojiichan. That said, if they're running a business and are still somewhat lively they can possibly still pass as ojisan in context.
Oniisan is much younger usually; usually I don't hear ojiisan so much as ojiichan (as well as ojisan rather than ojichan), my wife is Japanese and it rubs her weird to hear the opposite honorific in these cases.
“Middle-aged” is a wrong in this case translation of “ojisan”, lit “uncle” but colloquially can mean “old man” in an endearing or mean way depending on context
Well, if the edges are the Japanese life expectancy of 84 and 0, then 80 does fall somewhere in the middle. So there should be some four-year-olds in this deck, too.
The whole point of this is that we've reached breaking point with the ridiculous attempt to replace everything with a digital experience. It is fitting that Japan, which was arguably the place where the digital revolution really took off, should be the first place where it is rejected.
i think it would be interesting to allow each Ojisan to be in charge of distribution. some would freely hand out their cards to any who ask, while some might be more "stingy", awarding cards only to youth who impressed them. the game designer could periodically restock the Ojisan's supply and each generation of cards could be mechanically rebalanced to reflect the observed rarity.
I think AR or augmented reality games like this trading cards is the future of gaming, but this one is offline AR rather than online.
One of the best game I ever played is the text based souvenir game shopping game on Windows 3. I can't recall the name of the game now since it's more than 30 years ago, but it's about shopping souvenirs using London Underground Tube. You have a semi realistic time constraints like train schedules, your flight schedules and of course list of souvenirs items to shop. This is totally offline since there is no Internet available at the time but it's very engaging nonetheless.
My proposal for the modern version of the game is to use real-time train schedules (with delays, ticket discounts, etc) that are available publicly on the Internet for many metropolitan cities in the world for examples Tokyo, London and Berlin [1],[2],[3].
Imagine you can have a real-world realistic in-app in-game items purchases feature that you personally can buy in the game and delivered to you or anyone you fancy of giving souvenirs except that you only virtually went there.
[1] A real-time 3D digital map of Tokyo's public transport system (2023 - 103 comments):
As someone who got back into mtg recently, nah. I think physical games are going to hang around because there's just something different between playing games with friends on discord versus assembling at one of our houses to play.
> The more actively the ojisan engages in volunteer work or community service, the higher the chances of their card being upgraded to a shiny version with a glossy laminated effect.
In systems like this, where artificial scarcity is seen as having value, making the cards _more common_ for good works seems like a perverse incentive; clearly, the best approach is to be Victor Meldrew, so as to have a rarer card.
Fascinating cultural phenomenon blending traditional trading cards with modern social media. Clever use of QR codes linking to biographical data. I wonder if future versions could incorporate digital signing and verification on the blockchain to create provably scarce digital collectibles. Potential model for other innovative physical-digital crossovers.
Your last idea there seems like it’s totally missing the point of these oji-san cards. It’s about connecting people to each other and forming community, not about scarcity, value or any other economic term.
> Seeing this, the game’s creator decided to take it to the next level. New rules were introduced, allowing the cards to be used in actual battles. The objective isn’t to defeat the opponent’s card but to outplay it based on the characters’ skills and abilities.
Anyone have an idea of how the gameplay works? How do you "outplay" your opponent?
This is so heart warming. I hope this action gains more interest to other cultures. By the looks of it, the rate of success is greater within a relatively small to medium community in size.
“Japan has always had deep subcultures around games, cards, and character design — but what’s new is how global social platforms amplify them. It feels like TikTok is acting as a cross-cultural layer over local fandoms. Could this become a driver for new forms of cross-border cultural products?”
Looks like they edited it to remove that end section that shows they just copied directly from an LLM, so here is the original ending of the comment for posterity...
Maybe the solution to preserving cultural heritage isn't always high-tech digital archives, but finding ways to make tradition relevant within existing social practices. RetryGIs this to academic?EditNot at all! Your comment is engaging and conversational rather than academic. It strikes a good balance between showing expertise and remaining accessible.
Feels like some kind of astroturfing. I found it very sad seeing how many people had interacted with the posts on good faith. How are we going to deal with this kind of engagement farming in our online communities going forward? Do we need AIs looking for other AIs and flagged accounts?
If the (presumably) male at the community center had painted a portrait of the three older buddies he had in the community, would you all be asking "why does that painting only have men in it?"
I agree that they should do women next, given the unexpected popularity of what is presumably a pet project - but it's not hard to understand the very simple & obvious reasons why the first set of cards didn't feature women.
Imagine boys and girls could have their own gender being represented and they would compete with each other in that card game, or if it's not like "Magic: the gathering", at least interact around arguing who is better. But here, girls are completely excluded from any such interaction, like: "Nope, you don't exist." Girls, who should they look up to? Having both, it allows both genders to choose whom to admire.
I actually do not see the obvious reason. Maybe I missed something. My take is Japan has what some would call a gender stereotypical view. What is surprising to me is how a whole gender is excluded from something that creates much fun interaction and play. It feels surprising especially also when the project is supposed to represent a community. I almost feel bad pointing it out, because the project is so wholesome, but it's simply what I see.
I have a European lense, and I am sure I am not aware of many things of their culture. But, I am struggling to see how it's not a blunt confirmation of typical western feminist critique. Of course, Japanese society may have another cultural framework to rationalize it, where any such critique wouldn't even be recognized to be rational. That, in itself, reflects a possible large discrepancy in cultural views.
(edit: I don't think the creator did any wrong, I think they acted within their frame. Maybe the product wouldn't be as successfully otherwise. My inquiry is at the level of culture and it's undercurrent of values dictating what's successfully and to what degree an artifact is based in cultural values and re-affirm those, well transcending mere artistic choice and artistic appreciation which should be free.)
(edit 2, psychoanalysis: the artist framing males within cards... Males being looked up to... The artist psychologically in perhaps a Lacanian sense, is "looking up" to expressions of the mighty, assertive phallocentric values constituting society. The artist mediating societal core views by making this artifact, enacts those values by admiration, and mediates those values to the right population, boys, who by their mere gender, are both the protectors and the representations of society's core view. I suspect Japan is a phallocentric society more so than not.)
I notice you didn't include them making cards for gay individuals in their community in your argument. As a gay man I definitely and most certainly feel offended, like being told I don't exist because your argument focussed only on women being represented.
Do you see what I mean? I 100% agree that both men and women, gay, straight and every other group all need to be properly represented in society where it matters. But battles should be picked & chosen.
I agree, and think I see the problem you point at. We don't have to include more groups because, if we do for the sake of including, we have to include all endless variations because there's always a new invented category feeling excluded, and they use it as a power game to ruin the fun for others (seriously). And then what about the argument every obscene category should be included, which by the way would proves the existence of common sense of opposing that....
But, this inquiry of mine had me sympathize more with the recent political trends, that I otherwise think go too far in certain ways. It sucks to not be made visible---or perhaps purposefully made invisible---in the society you live in.
In this case, hypothetically, if one of the men is openly of another orientation, would he be included in the deck? Would society accept that? No, his orientation should not be mentioned in the card, as his orientation has nothing to do with his occupation which is the focal point of the card, but would society even allow him to be featured to begin with, given he is of another orientation? (These are just suggested questions, I don't ask for answer to them).
I feel like this is the kind of stuff that will be common with AI.
Imagine having a whatsapp family group and a bot auto-generates this type of games for you based on your group.
It's a privacy nightmare but it will be fun for sure.
I clicked the headline expecting a chuckle and left with an unexpectedly warmed heart.
> “We wanted to strengthen the connection between the children and the older generations in the community. There are so many amazing people here. I thought it was such a shame that no one knew about them,” [...] “Since the card game went viral, so many kids are starting to look up to these men as heroic figures.” > Kids have started attending local events and volunteering for community activities — just for a chance to meet the ojisan from their cards. Participation in town events has reportedly doubled since the game launched.
there's so much more I want to comment on--it's not screen-based, increased cross-generational interaction, strengthening community, elders having their stories known--but what I love is that these effects will compound into even greater benefits for the community.
This brings back something we've mostly lost in modern times. Elders had respect because they knew a lot and had contributed a lot, and everyone knew that. But that's not scalable, and we migrate a lot more now.
This is an engaging way that brings that back - rather than focusing on fantasy heroes, show kids real life role models.
Saying this as a rather old person myself...
I have a theory that, wrt knowledge, the relative advantage of age has been at least partially eroded by rapid technological advancement. In traditional/tribal societies, prior to the 20th century, wisdom actually accumulated with age, because the pace of change was slower. Wisdom & knowledge could be passed on from generation to generation.
Now, wisdom and knowledge become obsolete quickly. Many things you knew 20 years ago are outdated. The ICE engine you learned how to fix as a kid is now computer controlled, or has been replaced by batteries. Your optimistic/open/friendly mindset now makes you easy pickings for online scammers. Hell, even your family's secret cherished muffin recipe is spurned by your grandchildren because it has gluten or they're vegan or keto or whatever.
All this is just a take, but when I look at voting patterns in particular, I find myself pessimistic that the elderly are wiser than average.
Knowledge changes. I don't think wisdom necessarily changes. Maybe this is a philosophical discussion, but I think that is once of the key differences of knowledge and wisdom. However, I do think it is false that people necessarily accumulate wisdom with age. I know wise and unwise people of all ages, including people who think they're wise only because they're old.
when I look at voting patterns in particular, I find myself pessimistic that the elderly are wiser than average
Don't stop there, look at the US elected representatives! Washington is, from a lot of angles, a gerontocracy, and I don't think anyone would consider it "wise". The world has passed a lot of these folks by and even aside from that, their stubbornness to not step aside has in cases meant that they predictably die in office, so their seats go unfilled for a while, leaving people unrepresented...
> Washington is, from a lot of angles, a gerontocracy.
This goes deeper than one might suspect at first glance. The word "senate" comes from sennex, or old man, the same root word as "senile"
I'm not sure that's accurate. If I think of the crazies in Washington they're almost all (relatively) young.
The median age of the House is 57.5 years old and the Senate is 64.7[0]
Its really not great. There's very few representatives that have any life experiences of someone in the 30s or 40s. I'd argue that makes them out of touch on a host of very real, very pressing issues.
The other thing to think about is the age of those with the levers of power. Its one thing to be elected as a House member or to the Senate, its a whole other thing to sit on key powerful committees, be the leader of the party in the respective chamber etc. and the most powerful folks in congress trend into the 60s+
[0]: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/01/16/age-and-g...
I disagree on the advantages of wisdom as these days I’m thinking the opposite:
1) Lack of wisdom leads to reinvention of the wheel. How many programming languages are there only now doing things the same way as 30 years ago? What is novel versus an unnecessary re-invention?
I started studying Tcl code from back in the late ‘90’s and honestly was surprised. Hell, many people don’t even know what macports is even though homebrew isn’t much but an attempt to reinvent macports with a “cool” spin.
2) Societal language and general problem solving skills are deteriorating. Language, and mathematics evolve ever so slowly, and yet emphasis on their importance is reduced in favor of the whims of technological advancement.
I would rather hire someone with the slow-developing, traditional skills, than the new-age fads.
In addition, with the advances in AI the only people worth hiring will be the ones with traditional education—and the wise, classically trained among our elders will be evermore important.
> How many programming languages are there only now doing things the same way as 30 years ago?
Similar thing in abstract, but differently in practice and it does matter a lot.
Yet what we’re seeing on the web with Typescript components turning to a pretty version of MFC minus the right/middle-click capability. The “single-page app” becoming a defacto standard mode of development.
Looking at the Fluent design React components just makes me wonder: this is progress from the desktop metaphor designed in the 90’s? What are we trying to achieve?
Then, I take a step back and realize that the 20-something’s from today don’t generally know what that is because they are cloud native.
Isn’t it weird how “old people” are so much like other people? The insecurities, hopes and so on? It’s like stereotypes just don’t work or something.
Be careful extrapolating too much from the emotional maturity of one generation where an unfortunately large majority was lead poisoned as children.
Elder and middle millennials are just about equally as poisoned, and we're all full of microplastics
For the future of the USA this is fortunately not very accurate, and microplastics are not associated with increased incidence of dark triad personality traits, as far as I know.
I think this is true from a pure knowledge perspective but definitely not from a wisdom perspective.
Old people have -through their experience- gained a tacit wisdom that can be very helpful when considering life choices.
The craziest and stupidest things I hear regularly are from older people. There are broad swathes of old people that, not having been raised to be skeptical about media consumption on the internet, are entirely credulous about all manner of insane dis/mis-information.
That said, it's also something I'm seeing with younger people as well.
The oldest are the easiest to swindle. This isn’t new.
Also, current media has the veneer and polish of old media which makes it difficult for the unsavvy.
Yeah, maybe it’s more hope than reality
Old people are also just a lot more numerous, relative to young people, than in previous eras of history.
Every time I scroll through r/wallstreetbets or r/cryptocurrency I realize that I understand something about risk and patience that many young people do not. I am not disrespecting individual investors and I don't hate btc (tbh I don't invest in it either).
It's obvious that a lot of people feel like they have to find a way to get rich in the next three years or they will be poor forever. I am sure my generation was often the same. But people who have been through good times and bad times understand risk and patience.
people today cannot imagine what it would have been like to have each generation do, experience and believe exactly the same thing. for thousands of years. even just a few hundred years ago, new ideas were basically a waste of time because everything had already been tried. history would swallow you up.
I find many “elders” I know think climate change is a hoax, solar power is dumb , transsexuals are evil, immigration is silly etc, basically they hold extreme views and it effects my ability to trust their word or opinion.
I’m not sure if technology is to blame, I think social media is probably part of their corruption, Fox News too, but yeah, the lack of interest in their opinions is mostly self inflicted and I feel they choose to believe in nonsense because it’s fun to hate things.
What technology has done is give me access to lots of knowledge and wisdom and now I don’t have to put up with all the cruft to get what I need.
Some elders in my life are more balanced and I enjoy seeking their opinion and wisdom and leaning on their experience for all sorts of things.
One exception for me is that in Japan, even opinions are considered to be potentially offensive so elderly people are careful with their words. I’ve very really interacted with an older Japanese person who just spits rhetoric and conspiracy theories. Japanese even are careful to make a statement like “this is the best chocolate I’ve tasted”, It’s much more common to say “I think this is wonderful”.
PS: Also, don’t forget that especially elder women help with children a lot.
> ...but when I look at voting patterns in particular, I find myself pessimistic that the elderly are wiser than average.
Wisdom like 'It's harder to build something than it is to tear it down' and 'Change carries its own risk.'
The irony is that older people overwhelming voted for Trump on the basis of returning things to the way they were... and then Trump staffed his administration with young ideologues who are determined to upset the traditional order.
Midterms will be curious.
People group together uncorrelated concerns way too much in politics. I guess it's necessary side effect of the "us vs. them" mind virus.
> The irony is that older people overwhelming voted for Trump on the basis of returning things to the way they were... and then Trump staffed his administration with young ideologues who are determined to upset the traditional order.
There isn't any irony there. People heard promises of some X and Y and Z returning to the way things were, they voted accordingly, and then their candidate proceeded to go against them on A, B and C. This is only surprising if you believe there's a strong ideological correlation between all these things (there isn't), and that parties and their leaders act according to their purported ideologies (they don't).
It's not {X,Y,Z} vs {A,B,C}.
It's {X,Y,Z} vs {X,Y,C}.
That portions of the investment community threw in behind Trump and are now shocked (shocked!) that he has bigger priorities than keeping the market pumped is absolutely ironic.
Counterpoint: The only people who voted for Harris more than Biden were old white people (especially old white women).
The biggest shift towards right wing authoritarianism from a demographic perspective is among the young (specifically young brown/black men in America). This is happening globally at a rapid and unprecedented pace.
Get ready for a conservative, violent, radicalized youth. A Clockwork Orange but with 4chan like characteristics.
I'm not pessimistic about Boomers anymore. They're becoming teddybears as they age.
> radicalized youth
Two of my teenage sons play sports and at times it feels like all content consumption roads eventually lead to “manfluencers”[0]. If they’re watching content on lifting techniques, sports discussions, or gaming—not uncommon topics for teenagers—the recommendations are riddled with rabbit holes into the so called manosphere.
[0] https://www.psypost.org/rejected-and-radicalized-study-links...
I think society hasn’t figured out the incentives for elders currently. In private settings it’s fine, but in the work context I’ve seen few incentives for >50 year olds to support younger generations. To the contrary, many of these people fear losing their job just before retirement so choose risk-averse behavior. At the same time, unlike in the village, the juniors are not their relatives so that is also not incentivizing any positive behavior.
And yes there are of course very nice people who are the exception, but from what I’ve seen they are truly the exception. As Charlie Munger put it “Well, I think I’ve been in the top 5% of my age cohort all my life in understanding the power of incentives, and all my life I’ve underestimated it. And never a year passes but I get some surprise that pushes my limit a little farther.”
Worth noting that the relations to elder is really getting rocky, and people are rethinking them in both directions.
We can't hide from the influence the elder generations had on the current situation. Japan is a developed nation with a crazy low crime rate and incredible infrastructure thanks to them. It's also a social mess and the poster child of stagnation thanks to them.
This whole trading card game surfaces both sides of the coin, with what these people are bringing to the community and also why small kids shouldn't look to much upon them as it's a recipe for trouble.
Japan always does the hard thing. If someone misbehaves and two people are close by you can be sure that they loudly will talk with each other about how the person misbehaves (they are not afraid). The prisons are very strict, with beatings if you don’t follow authority. The police acts swiftly and have small offices everywhere . Green tea and healthy food makes people be able to control their mood (hard to not stuff your face).
The rules are very open and clear. The deincentives for misconduct are strong.
The newspapers focus are different. More fun or actionable news.
People just think they are built different, that is not the case. They just succeed with many small things that makes a greater whole. But people just dismiss it as a culture thing, which is reductive.
> If someone misbehaves and two people are close by you can be sure that they loudly will talk with each other
This is the exact opposite of my experience (and all my Japanese friends). They will stare at the person misbehaving but will absolutely not challenge him. Their culture is "avoid the problem/confronting at all costs".
> The police acts swiftly
They are considered tax thieves, even by Japanese people. Also, talk to some foreign women that got sexually harassed or even raped how the police helped them. In fact, I don't have proof, but I sincerely believe that if the police was trained well, crime rate would increase because they would find more crimes.
> healthy food
Are we talking about deep-fried food? Or perhaps over-salted dishes? Oh, no, you meant the sugar they add in basically all their cooking? Time where they mostly ate fish and rice is over. They barely eat enough vegetables. And fruits are for the well-off only.
It's a country that I love and have spent quite some time there—and more to come—but your observations are exactly the opposite of what I saw.
What they do correctly is the low unemployment rate, though I think it's starting to rise with younger people. People don't need to commit violent crimes to feed themselves if any work lets them afford necessities.
I think they are opposite because when I say police acts swiftly, you turn around and say that they are tax thieves. They can both be true?
Healthy food. Yes they eat healthy and their BMI shows it. I find it quite ludicrous to think their restaurants represent what they eat on daily basis. Proof is in the pudding (BMI). Yes it is getting worse and I hope American tariffs will help in this regard. Again, healthy living AND getting worse can both be true, especially with people that are friendly with cultures they want to know more about (many, but still a small subset).
Not sure why Violent crime would be better than non-violent crime for feeding your kids. But the narrative that is pushed heavily in media is the equal sign between poor and criminal, instead of the correlation, which again is reductive. Why? Is there anger? What food do trigger it? What mindset?
My grandparents where very poor (as in oat porridge for weeks poor). They would never hurt a fly. In certain minds that would have been a weakness, in certain minds it’s self sacrifice and equal strength.
Most want to be the wolf among the sheep. It is US greatest strength and greatest weakness at the same time.
I think it's more likely that social pressure to control people's weights is responsible for Japan's low BMI, not anything to do with the food. Japan is the land of vending machines and convenience stores. It's easy to eat junk food all day if you want to. But people will notice you getting fat, and unlike in Western countries they're likely to criticize you for it.
"Bring back shame again" increasingly feels like something that would actually be beneficial in the long run.
We tend to hit a Goodhart’s Law situation, where focusing on weight and BMI comes at the expense of actual health. That's how we get eating disorders and other mental health issues as well, so as usual it's complicated.
Assuming you are actually from the US, your point feels a lot like system justification[1] theory hard at work... If close to 50% (or even more) people around you have moderate to serious weight issues, I can imagine how you end up normalising the status quo, looking for explanations that rationalise it...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_justification
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Just an anecdata but on my last stay in Japan I lost a couple kilos in a good month. Even though I did abuse kitkats.
FWIW if you're on a trip it might counter-balance: you might be more active with fewer idle time, and the local food might also be harder to fully process. I saw that on a Spain trip where it made absolutely no sense I didn't gain weight touring tapas places for a week.
It was a business trip matching my typical routine. I'd say I was even less active because apparently running in Tokyo sucks.
Also some anecdata, but I think it depends so much on the person: I gained 10 kilograms by living more than a year in Japan.
I ate healthily so I wasn't fat by any means (in fact, I'm really skinny), but I ate so much that I think this is the reason I gained some weight. I ate a lot of rice (my rice portion was usually more than a Japanese person's entire plate).
Every time I'm in japan I walk far more than I do while in the US. I also end up going up stairs a lot more than I ever need to in the US. Good public transportation makes a huge difference.
I'm euro and runner/cyclist so I doubt that was a factor. I also had my bicycle with me for some rides on off days, but it wasn't beyond my usual mileage. Maybe even less, because riding road bike in Tokyo was an experience that made me realise how good I've it back home. Surroundings hills are nice, but getting out of the city sucks big time.
BMI is mostly useless metric when comparing genetically diverse cohorts. Weight gain is mostly in fat and that is proportional to fat cell count. There is a saying "nerve cells are born and die, but fat - lives forever". The truth to it is that at an adult age fat cell count is mostly constant and mostly genetic. As you get fatter you don't produce more fat cells, they just get fatter, pun intended.
There is huge genetic diversity between geographic regions / ethnic lineages in this regard. On one end you have northern european / african lineages, on the other end you have far east lineages, with other lineages somewhere in between, with northern european / african lineages having the largest fat cell counts, east asians the lowest. Furthermore, north european / african lineages tend to have fat distribution much more biased towards subcutaneous fat, whereas east asian lineages are biased towards abdominal fat, so many of the problems associated with high body fat (not insulin resistance) are seen at lower body fat percentages in east asian lineages.
On top of that, body fat percentage does not map to BMI. BMI may roughly linearly scale with body fat percentage around the "healthy" region, however there will be huge offset between genetic cohorts, including sex.
You should expect east asian BMIs to be lower across the board given similarly "unhealthy" diets.
Not the person you responded to, but this is a topic that fascinates me; do you have any resource to learn more about that? One that explains in average human terms would be appreciated!
https://www.youtube.com/@benbikman This dude is awesome
> police acts swiftly
Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by "swift".
> I find it quite ludicrous to think their restaurants represent what they eat on daily basis
I have lived with 2 different Japanese family (one younger, one older) and I was referring to the younger one when writing my previous comment. You say that restaurant doesn't represent what they eat, but again this is not my observation; restaurants and prepared meal (bento) are socheap—price-to-purchasing-power compared to Western countries—that many people don't even cook for themselves. So yes, it's absolutely relevant.
> Not sure why Violent crime would be better than non-violent crime for feeding your kids
I never said it was. But hunger definitely makes you more violent and more irrational. I excluded non-violent crimes because people usually exclude those when thinking about a country's safety. There are a lot of scams in Japan, for example.
> They would never hurt a fly.
Most people would never hurt someone. Most people are lawful. But most criminals are not from well-off families and grew up needy. Perhaps there is a causation, perhaps not.
> But most criminals are not from well-off families and grew up needy.
Petty or to-some-extent violent criminals. White collar criminals, the worse kind of criminal, usually come from good/rich/powerful families (I'm generally speaking, not talking about Japan specifically)
Which is why I initially mentioned violent crime. The one people tend to care about the most.
nitpick: I'd argue the worse types of criminals are war criminals, like for example Hitler, who is, in my mind, worse than someone like Bernie Madoff.
If you think sugar added to everything is a Japan phenomenon oh boi, time to travel.
As someone that lived there, frankly your take come off as the typical "English teacher/exchange student that lived in Tokyo and spend too much time on r/japanlife" and think Tokyo represent the average.
Many Japanese recipes I’ve tried have 2 tablespoons of sugar, but that’s not much in a meal for four.
Then there is mirin, which is basically sugar.
I live in the inaka (Aomori) and my experience is the same.
> If you think sugar added to everything is a Japan phenomenon oh boi, time to travel.
You're not refuting my argument.
> As someone that lived there, frankly your take come off as the typical "English teacher/exchange student that lived in Tokyo and spend too much time on r/japanlife" and think Tokyo represent the average.
That's very condescending of you and again not refuting my claims at all. Do most of your colleagues eat their own dishes? Don't they add a helluva lot sugar and salt to everything? Hell, even Japanese-made Western desserts taste way too sweet.
I think you could be a bit kinder and not resort to personal attacks.
Edit: it's true that I lived in Tokyo, but unfortunately it's a country that contains 4 cities that get more dense by the day at the cost of unpopulated rural areas.
The poison is in the amount, not in the substance. Salty or sweet food is completely fine if you don’t eat a ton every day. You actually need salt, it is much more dangerous to not consume enough of it.
Don't you think we eat too much of those?
Most people are dying of heart diseases and guess their causes...
Japanese elderly don't even drink the broth of ramen otherwise they may literally die (not my words).
Edit: sugar we don't really need to survive (trace amounts found in fruits and vegetables is basically enough) and salt maximum daily recommended amount is around 3g. Do you know how much salt a tablespoon of soy sauce contains?
That may be the limit for sodium, the max RDA for salt is above 5 grams [1].
Now check what happens when you don’t consume enough sodium [2] (it happens relatively often among athletes and gym bros who drink too much water).
[1] https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/food-types/salt-in-you...
[2] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hyponatremia/...
> who drink too much water
I totally understand what you mean, however the vast majority of the population isn't even close to being hydrated properly so you're just taking an extreme example to make your point.
You’re right, but the point of my first reply was that the Japanese (unlike Americans) don’t eat excessive amounts of food on average.
This is definitely true from my experience. They eat less than even Europeans (which themselves eat less than Americans on average).
Yeah, the us subsidy for violent crime aka "no money for the unemployed" is quiet counterproductive.
Japan is also full of Japanese people.
Reductive
So?
> Japan always does the hard thing
Talk about reductive, but also wrong. Not being racist, for example, is the harder option for most people, and not the one encouraged in Japan.
Another one: Japan still has children growing up in orphanages because it is considered weird to take in someone else’s child.
Office life is 50% time spent correctly pandering to your bosses feelings, and they have made so little effort to include women in the workforce and make parenting compatible with a good job that nobody wants to have kids.
This is about as deep of analysis of Japan as the Ghibli AI avatars are "art".
> If someone misbehaves and two people are close by you can be sure that they loudly will talk with each other about how the person misbehaves
This is just straight up fan-fiction, and absolutely not how the society here operates. You will get stared at. People will move aside, maybe. That's the extent of reaction from the public you can expect.
> The police acts swiftly and have small offices everywhere .
The "small offices"/kobans are more than useless for any actual "crime". They're quite useful in reporting that you lost a wallet/keys, but good luck when having any actual problems that need to be reported. Goes doubly so for areas where there's elevated chance of actual crimes happening — interacting with cops in Kabukicho has to be one of the least useful activities on the planet.
> The prisons are very strict, with beatings if you don’t follow authority.
And this is... a good thing? We have wildly different moral systems if you think that.
> Green tea and healthy food makes people be able to control their mood (hard to not stuff your face).
"Green tea and healthy food" is, frankly, an even stupider argument than "they're built different". Yes, it's the diet that makes the society more conformist, sure, why not.
There's many great, and many not-so-great things about Japan — why do these arguments online always just start with the most basic, surface level, inane pseudoanalysis?
1. Yes they won’t interact with the misbehaving person but they will loudly declare their feelings around it.
2. Police boxes are great when drunk people are causing ruckus. What are the details in your case?
3. Never said it was. You need to stop seeing things as being good or bad. What I said was strong incentives.
4. L-theanine has a calming effect, it is quite well known. Just as lead has the opposite effect.
To be productive, what actionable insights do you glean from countries such as Japan?
> L-theanine has a calming effect, it is quite well known.
The evidence for this in humans is very weak.
Here is a randomized, triple blind study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34562208/
”had significant positive effects on brainwaves, salivary cortisol, and self-reported state anxiety compared to the placebo in response to an acute stress challenge. These changes are indicative of relaxation in the brain and suggest a calming response in a moderately stressed but otherwise healthy population”
n=16. This isn't even worthy of classifying as a Phase I trial. Efficacy studies generally _start_ at n=100. Drawing any conclusions on efficacy from this kind of sample size is simply unscientific.
>They just succeed with many small things that makes a greater whole. But people just dismiss it as a culture thing, which is reductive.
Aren't rules part of the culture? The culture helps strengthening the rules while the rules help strengthening the culture.
Yes, but it is sometimes used to dismiss any actionable insights that can be used in politics.
”Would never work here, the culture is different!”
Maybe Im just ranting…
出る釘は打たれる。
The nail that sticks out gets hammered down (Google Translate.)
It is a way of dismissing clear rules.
Because it’s not that it is used to attack people that are different, but it is used to deincentive bad behaviour, but by conflating the two you end up in a bad place, where incentives are…misaligned.
It seems to me Japan does just fine by having rules and sticking to their culture.
Many people admire Japanese culture. But they wouldn't have anything to admire had Japanese people not conserving and caring greatly about their culture and sticking to their rules and ways of life.
I probably won't be integrating in the Japanese culture, but I admire and respect it and the fact they still have that culture.
It used to be that elders were few and far between, as the population pyramid was, well, a pyramid.
The other day I joked in conversation that I raise my daughters to disrespect the elderly - particularly my generation in the future - as considering the fertility rates (worse than in Japan) in the region, there will be plenty of elderly compared to younger generations.
I'm only half joking really. My own parents are reaching the age at which they would use some help every now and then. I have two siblings, so it doesn't take huge individual effort from any of us.
Meanwhile I'm the only one there who has children and most likely that will remain the case. Should they feel any obligation to help my siblings once the time comes?
You can teach them whatever you want, but the model of the world you give them is also what they will pass on to their kids.
"Family is a burden, and screw old people" doesn't seem that conducive to a good society.
I'm going more for "screw just old people". Nowhere in my parenting there's even a mention of family being a burden - well, the younger part at least.
Anyway, again, half-joking here - I'm not actively pursuing this approach, just not nudging them towards the traditional one.
I spent some years in Italy, where the younger generations are absolutely squeezed by the presence of a huge population of elderly. It went to such bizarre extremes where my one Italian friend not only doesn't own a home being in his 40s now, whereas both of his divorced parents each have their own properties, his salary is lower than his father's pension. Kids are of course out of the question.
My country is speedrunning this same scenario and the only thing preventing it from happening now is considerably lower life expectancy compared to Italy.
That's the same thing in France, where on average a retiree has a higher pension than a worker. Workers whose one third of gross salary goes to pensions, then at least another of net salary is paid for rent to live in a property often owned by the previous generation. It's very depressing environment to live in.
Every social norm will be exploited until it becomes a threat to existence. Right now the olds are exploiting their protected status to outright exterminate the younger generations. I will be down voted because the truth is too bitter for most to swallow. This happens close to all of us and isn't some bogeyman foreign/domestic politician or other convenient scapegoat.
I believe some resentment towards the elderly is unavoidable given the circumstances. Its unfortunate, but understandable. Looking at my own family, my mother inherited the family property after my father died. She has never had any officially payed job since her 30s. In the last 40 years, she has only lived off pension, and hasn't put anything back into the system. Meanwhile, I have worked 25 years straight now, and still don't have enough money to buy a decent apartment in the city where I work. I am guessing the perceived unfairness of this "pyramid" is going to make a lot more people unhappy in the future. Certainly, compared to my mother, my life feels like I am a drone. Not being female is a huge disadvantage these days. I mean, a pension for being married to a man who died? Alimony when the spouse leaves? All things males can only dream of. And, the incentives are all wrong. My mother didn't take on any official jobs because she would loose some of the pension she gets. So, its better to just suck every drop of blood you can out of the welfare state, instead of thinking about how the system actually works and that it needs people to put in effort so that others that really need it can take things out...
If my wife dies first I get half her pension, if I die first my wife gets half my pension.
If we divorce assets are spread equally. Kids complicate things a bit, the person who owes the kids get paid by the other one. As I have a far more flexible job (I do after school care etc) it’s likely I’d keep the kids and thus would be paid child support.
Things suck for the “young” (sub 45 nowadays). Despite what Andrew Tate and his ilk tells you this is nothing to do with gender. It’s to do with every increasing ownership of the wealth by the wealthiest.
First of all, great that you seem to have a relatively equal situation. It reads like your wife is actually working. Good for you.
However, your accusation is totally wrong and uncalled for. I know the name, but I have never read/heard anything from the Tate brothers. In fact, my opinion about female priviledge in our society stems purely from my own experience, in particular my mother. This is something I'd like to have (make and female) feminists understand. All I need to be resentful of female priviledge is my own mother and her spite and her totally lack of humility. Much of backlash towards feminism is self-inflicted. We don't need hateful men to tell us what to think about female priviledge. All we need is our own eyes. Not all women are shining examples of rationality and empathy. Maybe feminists should start by working on/with the bad apples in their own circles.
Fact is, my mother owns way more then I do, despite actually only having worked roughly 5 years in her whole life. All she owns was built up by men in the family of my father. And she inherited everything, including the priviledge of not having to go to work. If I could, I'd step into her shoes every day. And she doesnt even realize her priviledge, which is insulting.
This is just one example of the elderly spitting on the young, sometimes without even noticing. This tension is going to increase in the future even more.
This sounds like a personal issue you have with your own mother that you are desperately trying to extrapolate onto the rest of society. Taking one selfish woman and using it to demonise all women and even the concept of feminism is quite silly.
> Much of backlash towards feminism is self-inflicted.
Self-inflicted by non-feminists?
> We don't need hateful men to tell us what to think about female priviledge.
But you're going to do it anyway.
The sad thing is there are actual issues and there is a kernel of truth to the feeling that men are discriminated against in some cases (as of course are women - and let’s not go anywhere near transgender people) and life isn’t blind to gender - especially when it comes to custody decisions, but also in areas like justice and crime (are jail populations 50:50?), educational outcomes (boys do worse than girls), mental health (check suicide figures)
Sadly posters like this do so much damage to equality discourse that it’s unlikely to ever equalise until this vitriol is lost in the past like the prejudice to left handed people was.
> my life feels like I am a drone > Not being female is a huge disadvantage these days. > All things males can only dream of. Are you saying that the same dynamic do not occur when gender roles are reversed (pops stayed home while mom worked; mom does, pops gets house and pension)? No disrespect intended, but you might want to find someone to help you unpack and process these things you’re saying; no good will come of projecting on to gender dynamics and letting resentment fester.
I prefer to frame it as “help the younger generations” rather than “screw old people”.
I saw my parents, especially my mom, waste their youth taking care of two people who lived to near 100 years old, and I don’t want to see my kids waste their time and resources on me.
You want someone else's kids to do it?
No.
I mean, the model the current soon-to-be old people (boomers) operated on is exactly "screw everyone coming after me", so considered on the whole they deserve every bit of cold shoulder.
That doesn't mean that every boomer is bad of course, so if you have good (grand)parents, be good to them!
I get the sneaking suspicion that this might be a case of Poe's law.
> "Family is a burden, and screw old people" doesn't seem that conducive to a good society.
Great for GDP though
"Screw old people" is a common theme in hospitals and ironically, elderly homes.
> Should they feel any obligation to help my siblings once the time comes?
Absolutely not, but hopefully your siblings will have been positive enough presences in your children's lives that they will want to of their own accord.
It's even less that we move around a lot more; technology advanced with the personal computer and Internet such that kids see adults not knowing things about the world that they already do. What is decades of personal lived experience wisdom when there's tiktok and YouTube and chatbots?
>kids see adults not knowing things about the world that they already do
In the age where anyone can find anything online, experience is more valuable than it ever was. Technology won't replace that.
In the US we are at all time lows for internal migration. Or at least very close to them, I haven’t checked those stats in a couple years since this last came up on HN.
We used to (as a population) migrate to opportunity far more than we do now.
For many reasons there is simply far less community engagement and integration going on. Fewer people put down strong “roots” in their communities these days.
Thats surprising, I thought moving was less common than now. In either case, is it possible that the single households is the other factor, people choosing more instead of interacting with whoever is around?
It might be who’s migrating. Possibly the coastal PMC workers sloshing back and forth while blue collar workers have less mobility than the 60s?
> I thought moving was less common than now.
International migration has increased over time, although still representing a very small segment of the population. Presumably that is mostly people fleeing terrible situations (e.g. war torn areas). When you are in a stable country, it doesn't matter so much where in the country you are.
When? In my grandparents generation (born late 1800s to early 1900s) moving to either try to start a farm in the US or to leave a failing farm for a job in town at the local whatever factory was very common.
Post WW2 for the boomers was loaded with people flooding to all kinds of industrial boom cities.
After that it was hollowing out of the rust belt and moving out of cities to suburbs due to the lead/crime epidemic.
Then rich cities boomed back with millennials in a continuous feedback loop where the successful ones became more desirable as money brought attractions/activities/restaurants, draining the failing ones even more.
Then 2020 was the brief mega disruption where people thought the internet might catch on and they found out the vast majority of white collar jobs can be done from home so the fanned out to all of the nice and cheap suburbs, mountain towns, etc. Now the Internet fad has worn off so that’s reversing a bit.
Moving in the US has been very common until this brief lull where you could change jobs without relocating thanks to remote work.
Unfortunately we’re going backwards so it wouldn’t surprise me if constant relocation resumes.
The main factor that you fail to mention is living cost, and not the internet, which made it possible and desirable to frequently move in search of opportunity.
It didn't mean there weren't people that lived long-term in communities. However, it did mean that you could find more lucrative opportunities in different places while also affording to move and live there.
That began to slowly change in the 60's, beginning with the death of single occupancy residences and a lack of funding/investment in affordable housing for a significant portion of income brackets.
The last 30ish years helped cement that for lots of reasons, but the ability to work remotely via the internet isn't particularly new nor causative for that change.
> However, it did mean that you could find more lucrative opportunities in different places while also affording to move and live there.
Same as now. The data clearly shows more job opportunity in rural areas (not all rural areas) and more affordable living to go along with it. But we haven't (yet) reached the dire situation where the people actually have to make the move like previous generations found themselves in. Most people won't leave family and friends behind unless they feel they are out of options.
People moving in search of opportunity back then weren’t doing it because it was easier. It meant giving up your family and friends far more so than now because of the lack of internet. An out of state move meant a handful of letters a year was the level of contact you were in for and that was only for close family.
Living cost was a big barrier back then (except maybe the homesteading) too. Any time someone is leaving a poor outlook to a more booming area it usually means cost of living is going up.
> but the ability to work remotely via the internet isn't particularly new nor causative for that change
It absolutely was the first time any non-trivial percentage of work was remote. More importantly, the spike meant 15% of the population became eligible to leave an expensive city that sucked during the lockdowns. https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/2024/dec/trends-wo...
There is most definitely affordable housing all over the US. People are just both picky and lacking opportunity in the cheaper places. Remote work was the fix for the latter part so downplaying that is missing the point.
If you have a remote job and just want to live in NYC because of culture, then you have no leg to stand on when complaining about housing. It’s purely a luxury decision at that point.
> That began to slowly change in the 60's, beginning with the death of single occupancy residences
This is only true in a few select areas. Check out https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/renters-vs-homeowne...
Specifically the “average annual homeownership rates since 1964”. Right below it has a snapshot of rates by state and the difference tells you everything you need to know.
Housing is only broken in the top desired areas and remote work gave you the opportunity to get a good job while leaving those.
Housing crisis deters people from moving to where the jobs are, and it's a new phenomenon.
There was a news article few months ago, about waiting times for healthcare (in the UK, if I remember correctly). One govt official commented something like older people having to wait longer to see physicians is "not a priority". I was stunned reading it, didn't even know how to react.
It is nice to read articles like this. I wish more humans looked at other humans beyond their youth, looks and their net worth
I've been taught to respect the elders. But now I've seen that there are enough of them which aren't honest, good people, but only know how to present themselves in a positive light, while looking down on the ones they live with.
I now stand neutral against them: they may be good, they may not be. There's nothing in their age which makes them deserve more respect than the one younger people deserve.
All you know about an old person is they’ve lived - and survived - longer than someone who is not so old.
That can have a lot of different meanings.
So do you respect 12-year-olds as much as you respect 25-year-olds? Do you respect the opinions on work and adult responsibilities of a 23-year-old as much as those of a 35-year-old? Do you trust the professional judgment of a junior engineer as much as that of a senior engineer?
Older people, in general, know more and have better judgment than younger people.
You're conflating age with wisdom - a common fallacy when charisma is valued over education, leading to Septuagenarian Heads of State ruling on partisan lines rather than Technocratic and egalitarian governance.
Age correlates with wisdom. It’s not a fallacy. I don’t claim that every person is wiser than all people younger than him.
Not in Japan.
My dad got a guy assigned to his farm once from the unemployment office once. Guy was in third generation unemployed. Tried to bribe himself out of shovelling shit, but my father wouldn't take the money. The tales a 90 year old person made redundant by society and thus avoiding society must have to tell. Stay a while and listen..
My takeaway of the cool dynamic at work here is that universally (but particularly in Japan) no one wants to be seen promoting themselves. Especially for older people they've done so many cool things, and are currently doing cool things now that they're retired and have free time, but socially it's a bit awkward to just ask, what cool and interesting stuff can you tell me about.
And the physical / game medium helps connect intergenerationally as well. But actually I could see this kind of trading card dynamic working in other situations like business networking or speed dating or something.
> increased cross-generational interaction
cross-class interaction too.
in ~2012 i was in Tokyo, and by chance was (also) invited to someone's birthday.. The guy was working as pizzeria-waiter, and has invited.. all his usual clients to his birthday - in his small apartment, with "everyone brings some food they made" instead of gifts. My friend was a client.. so i landed there too. That was the most bizarre mix of people there. Some were just mom-and-pop. Some were millionaires. And everything in between. Most were japanese, but also from about 3-4 diff. countries. And everyone talking with everyone else as equal..
a very interesting cross-section - and should i say glimpse-of-future - of society.
Apparently there are trading cards for everything now: https://divorceddads.shop/
I was surprised this wasn't mentioned in the article - I assumed this is what they were talking about.
I hope the people don't get too much pressure to up their stats.
>The rarity of a card isn’t based on fantasy stats — it’s tied to real-world contributions. The more actively the ojisan engages in volunteer work or community service, the higher the chances of their card being upgraded to a shiny version with a glossy laminated effect.
I'm a bit reminded of the cards Harry and Ron find in their chocolate frog packaging, each of which features a picture of a famous wizard, some historical, some contemporary like Albus Dumbledore. The kids had a chance of actually meeting some of the heroes pictured on their cards.
For real. This is the best thing I’ve seen on HN in a long time. My kids are very into these card collections/games and I told them about it and they thought it was a great idea to put “normal” people on these cards. Super great story and concept. Japan isn’t perfect, but some amazing things come from their society.
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I get the joke but man, for once I'd like something to just be wholesome full stop.
> Since the card game went viral, so many kids are starting to look up to these men as heroic figures.
per usual, women just exist :) men get to be heroic elders, women are footnotes, merely assisting men to become heroes.
This is such a cynical, keyboard-warrior take. Why do you feel the need to drag down someone else's positive and impactful contribution? No one is stopping you from creating a card game with women as the heroes.
The article makes it clear that this was the passion project of Eri Miyahara, Secretary General of the local council and a woman herself. Though I'm sure you had noble intentions with this comment, it ignores the professional judgement that led her to create this game and turns her efforts into "merely assisting men to become heroes."
way to add a negative twist... there's no reason an expansion or separate 'obaasan' set couldn't be made
I kinda get where you're coming from, but the comment is about the fact it hasn't been done, and there's no reason why it should be a separate set.
Elderly men are more vulnerable to suicide die to lack of social connections. So it makes sense for a project that fosters social connections to prioritize men.
It's about equity, not equality.
Reminds me of the fisherman call where you could sign up to have a professional fisherman give you a wake up call. https://soranews24.com/2017/05/12/japanese-fishermen-start-m...
I don’t speak Japanese but I would pay for this. Trying to get up and run before 6 is a chore. Having a fisherman wake up call would be awesome and motivating. Especially for someone who loves fishing.
I found Wakie[1] in 2015 while on a project in London. Every morning at a specific time you set, a stranger (real person and no AI) would call you and talk to you briefly, waking you up. I used it for about a month.
1. https://wakie.com
How interesting, can you share some pros and cons from the one month experience? Was it always the same person?
There was always a different caller. One thing I vividly remember was when I found it really hard to understand a pretty heavy Scottish accent. I'm not random-social enough to be talking to new people every day, but it was a fun experience. Fun for that short interval but not really my type of thing.
I would prefer this very much to Jocko Willink
I want a wake up call from David Goggins.
I want one from Walton Goggins.
Baby Billy’s Bright Beginnings
That caused a much needed chuckle this morning.
I think literally and figuratively it would involve a bathtub full of icewater.
Last year it was a real fisherman.
Next year it will be an AI.
But AI is like video games, it can’t emulate sacrifice and other deep human dynamics because there’s no stake. If you die you restore from last save point. For AI you have infinite no-memory interactions, which changes the dynamic. In other words, your actions don’t have lasting consequences.
The few games that succeed in building something deeper (for me RDR2 but you take your pick) have to carve out sacrifice and character out of the player’s time, which is finite.
Well said. If I signed up for this and I knew it was AI calls, I would likely not pick up. But if I knew it was a person calling me, there's a much stronger emotional incentive to pick up and talk to them.
Exactly. These are the things I think many companies will fail to realize as they slap "AI" onto and into their products and services.
Given Japan's extreme conservatism, I doubt it.
Check out their robots.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_robotics
Female companion robot as early as 2005.
Japan has an exception to copyright law allowing for analysis, which has been (ab)used to train AIs to generate Studio Ghibli style content.
[dead]
I love this! I did not expect to love this.
Wow.
The cards are exemplary. Any Ojisan[0] featured on a card should feel honored. I looked at the cards shown to us and immediately was struck by the artists ability to both see the beauty in these fine people and deliver it on the card in a compelling, clearly respectful way.
And the motive! It is simple and noble: Elevating Town Fathers in the eyes of those for whom they often serve.
The idea is pure,[1] uncluttered by unnecessary detail and expectations. The only real complication came from the kids, who naturally wanted the game aspect to make the whole thing fun!
Of course they did.
Humans being beautiful. That is what this is and as much as I want this sort of thing where I live, I know it would not be this organic thing of beauty and that makes me sad. I am not sure enough of us here have what is needed.
I am definitely sharing today. What a delightful story!
[0] Capitalized because local heroes
[1] Pure is the word I use in this context. There may be better ones. Please share.
Although I think "pure" is alright to use in this context, I would probably have gone with "beautifully simple".
Not bad. That could work, but still the sentiment remains a bit elusive.
Yours does nail a couple strong elements to it.
It seems almost noble, or just is a celebration of quiet nobility. That is a part of it too.
I feel this is one of those times we would learn Germans have a dead on word like they often do.
> I feel this is one of those times we would learn Germans have a dead on word like they often do.
Yeah but it would be 72 characters long, being composed out of 6 different words difficult on their own (I know German a bit, and some words I have to read in my head loudly to see where they break into subparts)
I remember as a young kid living in Norway, there'd be the "russefeiring"[0] around May where students finishing their final semester will don a brightly colored overall and cause mayhem in the town. I remember getting shot a lot with water guns. Anyway, one thing that is pretty fun about that tradition is that the students print cards for themselves with a picture and fun facts etc and hand them out to all the little kids, and we'd trade them between ourselves to have the whole collection of students.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russefeiring
I still remember decades and decades ago hearing about vending machines in Japan. Someone mentioned going to Japan and how you could get cold cans of coffee out of vending machines there. This was sometime in the 1990s, before even Starbucks was a huge thing. Everyone I knew thought the idea of cold coffee was ridiculous, a quirk of the Japanese that would never catch on.
I feel the Japanese have been pretty good at exporting culture, but it has a lot of misses among the few hits. I wonder if this is something that would catch on outside of Japan.
> Someone mentioned going to Japan and how you could get cold cans of coffee out of vending machines there.
The actor Tommy Lee Jones has some amusing commercials for canned coffee:
* https://www.brandinginasia.com/the-tuesday-take-suntory-boss...
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boss_Coffee
The premise is that he is an alien in disguise evaluating human society, so some of the situations shown are quite whimsical.
David Lynch's Twin Peaks commercials for Georgia coffee, featuring almost the entire cast in character and a running subplot of a missing Japanese woman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAxNvhN7UUE
This is incredible! Thanks for posting.
> There's an old tradition of American stars appearing in Japanese television commercials, [...] before downing what appears to be about a four ounce can of Suntory Iced Rainbow Blend coffee.
Was this tradition referenced or inspired by Bill Murray's "Suntory Time" scene in "Lost in Translation" (2003)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiQnH450hPM
Westerners in Japan has been a thing for decades:
> Anyone who has seen Sofia Coppola’s Lost in Translation must wonder for at least a second if there is truth in Bill Murray’s character of a famous American actor in Japan to film a commercial. Well, there definitely is. Huge American and European stars have been hawking products in Japanese commercials for decades.
* https://www.cinemablend.com/movies/western-entertainers-who-...
* https://www.goretro.com/2015/08/sake-to-me-western-celebs-in...
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_in_Japan_(phrase)
She was referencing the ones done by her father: https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/akira-kurosawa-francis-ford-cop...
> Was this tradition referenced or inspired by []
referenced. Here's a couple suntory commercials dating much older:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyN-aHtAVzs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goUBezKpNmU
One of my favorites:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgEM8VjHD_0
Andy Warhol for TDK
MMA fighters did a lot of cool stuff during the Pride days
https://www.sherdog.com/thumbnail_crop.php?image=http://www....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkV8TohDyGA
And vending machines with hot drinks and soups, my favorite being cream of corn soup...which I have yet to see stateside.
Another thing Japan had before the US was texting on your phone. I was living in Japan at the time and recall telling my American friend who worked as a Manager at ATT about texting and she thought it was the dumbest thing she had ever heard of.
First trip to Japan, I selected what I thought was a local cherry Coke equivalent from the vending machine. I was more than a little surprised to get a can that was a) hot, and b) contained not cherry-flavored cola, but chunky sweet red bean soup (oshikuro).
oh noooo
> And vending machines with hot drinks and soups, my favorite being cream of corn soup...which I have yet to see stateside.
Its a cultural thing I am sure. As an American I will say that prepared food served from a vending machine is going to be associated with low quality and possible poor hygiene. I'd equate it with food from a gas station store or roach coach (mobile canteen)- food prepared with little care or quality, destined to be sold for as little as possible while still being profitable. Stale bread, wilted vegetables, low quality meats, cheese, etc, sloppy prep. Who cares, ship it.
On the other hand, I can see food vendors in Japan guarding their reputation with attention to their craft ensuring quality.
> As an American I will say that prepared food served from a vending machine is going to be associated with low quality and possible poor hygiene.
The grandparent post is talking about canned food/drink that's heated in the machine. Vending machines with freshish prepared food do exist, but they're kinda pointless given the existence of...
> I'd equate it with food from a gas station store or roach coach (mobile canteen)- food prepared with little care or quality, destined to be sold for as little as possible while still being profitable
Convenience store food in Japan is fantastic: food from 7/11, Lawson, Family Mart, etc. is probably unironically better than the median restaurant in the U.S.
> Convenience store food in Japan is fantastic
Indeed. Spent a few weeks there last year. You can't throw a rock and not hit one of those places - it's absurd how many there are no matter where you are. Though, TBF in NYC the density of convenience stores/bodegas is similar but the consistency lacking. I do miss those gooey chocolate babka things they sell in the 7-11s.
> is probably unironically better than the median restaurant in the U.S.
Eh... I would say they certainly beat out fast food.
The foods sold in vending machines make sense though - everyone's already used to instant or canned soup, so throwing it into a vending machine and warming it up makes sense. You're not getting fine dining from the vending machines, you're just getting a quick and tasty snack (although there is also a culture of niche vending machines with serious meals that require cooking at home, which is another story). Just swap out the corn potage with something Americans would already be familiar with, like Campbell's chicken noodle soup in a single-portion can with a twist cap instead of needing a can opener, and it could work.
I think some Americans might object more to the idea of microplastics leaching into your food, or high amounts of preservatives, though. And the ubiquity of vending machines in Japan makes it possible to build a habit around vending machine food, whereas in the US they're fewer and far between, so you couldn't really depend on them.
> The foods sold in vending machines make sense though - everyone's already used to instant or canned soup, so throwing it into a vending machine and warming it up makes sense.
The US used to have much more diverse vending machine offerings, including prepared hot foods and drinks, but they started to disappear in the 1970s, though you could find stragglers into the 1990s in older institutional settings (e.g. government buildings), especially for drinks--coffee, hot cocoa, etc. As previously mentioned, I think they fell out of favor because they began to be considered very poor quality (it's a death spiral if turnover doesn't happen fast enough), perhaps as compared to increasingly popular drive-thru alternatives. I guess in a way it was a result of our car culture. Like with the demise of cafeterias generally[1], Americans preferred to jump in their car rather than choosing from what was available within walking distance.
[1] A wall of vending machines selling sandwiches, salads, soups, and hot drinks constituted a "cafeteria" in many buildings.
People always forget something, when talking about Japanese vending machines: vandalism. Vandalism is relatively uncommon in Japan, whereas it's sadly endemic in most Western societies.
Yup, there was one! that I was aware when I worked at an 8000 employee IBM facility 20 years ago. It was novel to be able to get hot burgers out of it.
Hang on – are you saying Americans don’t have vending machines with snacks and hot drinks in office buildings, schools, hospitals, etc.?
In almost 40 years, I have never seen a vending machine in the US selling anything hot.
It is always cold, usually carbonated, sweet drinks, water, or junk food like candy, chips, and pastries.
Wow, that’s quite surprising!
In Europe, it’s quite common to see machines like these in buildings: https://www.seeberger-professional.de/wp-content/uploads/202... (left to right: hot drink, snack, and cold drink machines).
Smaller ones are also common: https://www.observantonline.nl/Portals/0/OpenContent/Files/1... (there you can also see the disposable cups that the hot drinks are dispensed in).
Is that why Starbucks is popular in America - no hot drink machines?
The second type is ubiquitous in gas station convenience stores in America. Which says everything, really: it's car culture.
I was living in Australia in 2000 and texting was more common than calling because it was cheaper to text than call. But in the US it was the opposite. You had unlimited calling, but plans around that time had a different pricing scheme for texting (can't remember the exact details) so could be one reason why it took the US a bit longer to finally pick up texting. I remember it was about a year or 2 later that I felt texting started to become more common in the US.
Yeah, I lived in Europe in 1999 and 2000 and then moved to the US. In the EU you could text people from different countries and it would often work.
Then I moved to the US and the shock of not being able to text between networks was really something. That and writing cheques. I'd never written a cheque in Australia or Europe but you sort of had to in the US while electronic payments between banks were sorted in Australia in the 1990s.
These days it seems when a technology appears it generally spreads more quickly.
> In the EU you could text people from different countries and it would often work.
Wasn’t foreign texting expensive at the time?
Texting in network was a fixed rate per text (later unlimited) and then texting out of network was crazy like 10 cents a message.
You thought blue bubble was bad, it literally cost you money to talk to people who chose another carrier.
The texting culture had funny side effects then because of it. You would get roasted for multiple messages when one would suffice. :)
My first cell phone bill was like $600 because my gf at the time used a different carrier. This was also back in the olden days of unlimited texting!! (Only after 9pm)
Facebook was big partly early on at places like CMU because unis were early adopters of ubiquitous wifi -- so FB messenger served as a free texting tool back when you'd have people tell you to put their last name as NOTEXT.
Interesting I thought the main reason whatsapp took off outside the US was the texting costs.
Emoji is a Japanese thing too. It's why a lot of the early emoji are kind of odd from a western point of view, like the naruto fish cake, Japanese top secret emoji and hot bath symbol.
Well, it's called "Emoji" (絵文字, literally "picture character/letter") for a reason ;) Weird how it's often misunderstood as being derived from "emotion" in western media.
It's not that weird. In English we had a similar idea called emoticons, which started as ascii/your local encoding and then evolved to be pictures. When emoji hit the masses, it was only natural to assume the two were related.
There's also the Moyai statue in Shibuya that gave us an emoji: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moyai_statue#Shibuya_Station_m...
The really novel thing about those vending machines is that they do both hot and cold drinks. A vending machine technician realised that the hot side of the refrigeration unit could be used for something practical rather than just disposing of the heat through a radiator.
I've seen vending machines in the USA dispense hot soup, it was at a rest stop somewhere in the middle of nowhere.
No idea if they had cream of corn.
Kinkos in the 90s (back when it was a by-the-hour computer lab) had vending machines with hot chicken soup.
We had hot chicken soup from a dispenser at school (~2000) too, but it was gash made from powder.
was it just broth? the vending machine at my college, had that where it'd have coffee, cocoa, or chicken broth.
Yeah! The hot corn liquid from a vending machine was maybe the weirdest thing I had when I visited.
Emoji also caught on, I'm told.
Iced Coffee has been very popular in Australia (and especially South Australia) since the 70s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmers_Union_Iced_Coffee
(I'm assuming this is an equivalent product; I don't drink coffee personally.)
Better than that is the Japanese 'Boss', which even comes in a very-Japanese steel tin. Great coffee that you can now get at most Australian servos, convenience stores, etc.
https://suntorybosscoffee.com
It's made in the Japanese iced style, which is easy to mimic at home and really does make a nice iced coffee.
1. Get your standard filter/drip machine. Nothing fancy.
2. Double the amount of coffee you normally use. You want it coming out strong.
3. Fill the receiving jug with ice.
4. Drip directly on to ice.
As a New Zealander who's been to Australia + a small handful of other countries I can vouch for Australia having a uniquely good convenience store dairy based drink industry. OAK is another old faithful brand I miss in NZ. Also Hungry Jacks (Burger King) there uses cream instead of milk in the soft serve and it's noticeably better.
The $1 coffee from 7-11 was my go-to drink in Australia. Came with the added bonus of annoying the hipster coffee snobs in melbourne when I was walking down the street holding a 7-11 cup. Damn fine coffee.
7-11 has surprisingly good coffee in the US too, or at least Texas. There was a 7-11 on the corner of the block I use to live on and drive past to get to Starbucks until I was running late once and decided to just grab the first coffee available. Now if I just want plain brewed coffee I'll find a 7-11. And if I'm wanting something more Starbuck-ish but don't want to deal with the morning rush, I'll go to a 7-11 and mix little over half a cup of the brew coffee then top it off with their hot chocolate.
I am not a coffee hipster (as will probably become evident by my next statement) but I do like good cafe coffee here in Melbourne and I completely agree. I don’t make it my daily driver, but 7/11 and even McCafe coffee is quite decent here IMO
Iced coffee in Australia seems to automatically imply sweet with lots of milk (or even ice cream). This is very jarring when you expect the default “iced coffee” to be black coffee over ice.
I agree completely, most iced coffee here from supermarkets is hyper sweetened rubbish that barely tastes like coffee at all. You have to go for “double” or “triple” espresso options to get a proper taste of coffee, otherwise you’re just drinking sweet milk (and not even in the guilty pleasure Vietnamese iced coffee way)
As previously mentioned Boss does do a decent black iced coffee though, and there are a few niche brands around putting out less sweet varieties
> This is very jarring when you expect the default “iced coffee” to be black coffee over ice.
Same reaction I had the first time I ordered a cappuccino there. I learned to order Flat Whites cause I kept forgetting to tell them to not put chocolate powder on top...why anyone thought that would be a great idea is beyond my comprehension. The Flat White on the hand easily makes up for their cappuccino faux pas
_Most_ of the coffee sold in cans in Japan is also sweetened. Not all, you can usually find a can or two that are just black and unsweetened, but a majority of the cans will be sweet to some degree.
> Everyone I knew thought the idea of cold coffee was ridiculous, a quirk of the Japanese that would never catch on.
Iced coffee has been around for centuries and is very common in warmer countries (and was before the 90s). アイスコーヒー is closer to cold brew than the milkshake-esque thing we call iced coffee.
Japanese vending machines are an act of engineering beauty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AJnGjMAObA
These is easily one of the most heartwarming videos on YouTube.
I dream about being able to get a cold can of Boss Coffee every day outside my house.
> Someone mentioned going to Japan and how you could get cold cans of coffee out of vending machines there.
They're everywhere!
In rural Hokkaido, some people even have them outside their home's driveway for people walking by. They have various teas (green, hojicha, jasmine, etc.), Coke and Pepsi products, Pocari Sweat (like Gatorade), iced coffees, and sometimes even hot teas and hot coffees that are heated on demand. They're super convenient and something I miss having in America (we seemed to have more of them here in the 90's and early 2000's).
The only problem is that in Japan there can sometimes be absolutely zero public garbage (or, more correctly, recycling) bins in sight. You have to carry your trash with you, which is a bit annoying and mildly gross if it spills.
My most bizarre Japanese vending machine experience: I once found one featuring an eduroam [1] sticker.
Incredulously, I tried to connect, and... it worked. I still have no idea what that was all about!
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduroam
There was a story of someone finding one in the middle of a hike, and following a long cable to an actual settlement.
Profound metaphor for the "uplink" to civilization which we all ultimately depend on.
Pocari Sweat is so good. I always grab a bottle anytime we go to the japanese store outside chicago. I assumed it was a fake anime product like the way they always turn pepsi into bepsi or something, but no it's real and it's delicious.
Pocari Sweat is great. I live in Osaka now and it's hard to resist constantly drinking the stuff. Aquarius also.
Aquarius (essentially grapefruit, somewhere between soda and sparkling water) is a bit of an acquired taste. And when my school's Japanese club visited in high school, boy, did we acquire it. Lots of "Pocari Sweat" and "Calpis" double entendres flying around, too.
Aquarius is huge in Catalonia as well.
TIL there was a real-world inspiration for Tropic Thunder's Booty Sweat.
> You have to carry your trash with you, which is a bit annoying and mildly gross if it spills.
True, but it also means that most people are used to this and don’t even question it. Which means no overflowing garbage bins or the need to service them in the middle of nowhere.
I found they did have bins, but they were either at the vending machine or in the entrance of any store. And there are a lot of convenience stores!
The bins near vending machines are almost always _only_ for cans/plastic bottles.
That accounts for ~80% of the garbage you'll produce, but sometimes you'll have a onigiri wrapper, or a dirty tissue that'd be nice to get rid of, and finding a place to do that can be more difficult (ironically, especially so in heavily touristy areas).
Completely agree. More trying to highlight where you can find them, as many people are just stumped as there's nothing outside.
My first thought when I read this was, "This is very Japanese, and nothing like it would ever happen in America." Americans and Japanese are poles apart in the ways they relate to their communities, older generations, etc.
Vietnamese people have been drinking iced coffee for half a century.
The more ridiculous proposition here is that people, other than Americans, only drink hot coffee.
> I wonder if this is something that would catch on outside of Japan.
Cynically, only if someone sees a business / money making opportunity.
it may well be "cold brew", a coffee specialty that is some work to make at home and that has a very distinguished taste and contrast coffee that was brewed hot and then cooled down.
That's awesome.
Town celebrates its own via a medium that the youth seek out on their own. The youth then forge closer connections with their elders. Everyone is happy, everyone wins.
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Putting on my Product Manager hat, the best product launches often focus on a single well-defined persona, as this one apparently did. Now that this is proven to work, they can expand to middle-aged women, older people, younger people, animals and what have you. But I think that this is a great start.
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Those damn elderly white Japanese men!
I'm sorry, white men?
The are two gender : women and white men.
Where outside of Europe were "white men" in charge 1000 years ago?
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The bar in this medium is pretty low. Pokemon is about capturing animals in the wild and making them fight in captivity.
The "why just men?" question is probably worth raising locally, but I'm not going to shame them from the other side of the planet for it.
That's a needlessly uncharitable interpretation, but it is an interesting point.
I think that increased rates of low (and high) grade neurodivergence in men, and society expecting eccentric behavior from men, especially as they age, results in in the sort of characters that make something like this work. Umarells in Italy come to mind.
There's quite a few assumptions in your comment; one, that men have higher grades of neurodivergece than women (whereas it can also be underdiagnosis or masking through higher societal expectations on women). Women are eccentric too.
Men are more dissimilar from one another, generally, than women are from one another. Sorry.
This is a well-known fact with a well-established genetic basis. For pretty much any trait, the standard deviation of the distribution for men is larger than the distribution for women.
Bold claim with no sources there
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis
I guess you live up to your username, though not the most flattering interpretation of it :D :D
If there are studies that prove this, can i see them? And are there equivalent studies on populations of women? Or is this a Kodak situation where there’s just at best an assumption based on existing biases?
In Japan, men commit suicide at roughly twice the rate of women. The age group with the highest rate of suicide was 50-59. I can't find good data, but loneliness and not feeling valued by a community is very likely a significant contributor here.
Women are important but if the problem you're trying to solve is deaths of despair, then focusing on men makes sense.
That isn't even only Japan. On a global scale men are 1.7 times more likely, in the US 3.6 times, Europe 4.0.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicid...
There are so few resources about the topic for men compared to women that comlaining about it is just sad.
Suicide among men is ~4x higher in Canada and the USA in some demographics, too. In some cases, such as men 80+, the rate is 6.5x higher in Canada. This is crazy sad. It doesn't mean other things affecting women aren't sad. It just means this is sad.
Except that’s not in any way their motivation, so this is a completely unrelated comment.
From the article:
"We wanted to strengthen the connection between the children and the older generations in the community. There are so many amazing people here. I thought it was such a shame that no one knew about them."
Older people being forgotten and unknown seems relevant to me.
Stop assuming. Strengthening connections doesn’t mean old men are killing themselves.
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In fairness older men are goofy, women not so much
And Japanese people are well aware of this, there is definitely a common youth cultural appreciation of goofy middle-aged men here beyond what I was used to growing up in the USA.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
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Well, evidenced by the fact that these aren't even white men, and we have no evidence that anybody in the community in question are actually offended or feeling disempowered except for righteous social justice warriors like yourself, this comes off as screeching from someone who just wants to push their agenda.
And before you call me a sexist MAGA patriarchal asshole, not only am I liberal, but I actually live in Japan and interact with the local culture here all day every day. I speak the local langauge, am married to a local, have local friends and in fact talk about and interact with ojisans on a very regular basis, because it is a cultural touchpoint that is relevant here. Do you?
I am sick and tired of annoying people like you co-opting every discussion to push a specific victim-mindset zero-sum world view, reducing everything to your race and sex struggle without actually lifting a finger to, say, do things that actually affect outcomes in society besides pissing people off—unlike the people who set up this lighthearted card game, which is demonstrably bringing a community together. Not everywhere is the USA, let alone your toxic online ragebait bubble. What you are doing is repelling people from your cause more than helping it, myself included.
Please do some soul searching and if you really feel a need to irritate people, I would appreciate you do it somewhere else. I hope that your implication that Japanese culture is inferior because it doesn't kowtow to your cultural expectations, has made you feel good today.
Hear hear
"obachan" expansion potential
The whole thing was an idea of a woman, Eri Miyahara, 45-year-old secretariat head of the Saidosho regional community council, I bet she have her reasons to focus on men, I suspect it's the perceived loneliness of the selected ones.
An obvious choice for an early expansion pack.
Like Pokemon adding a girl player character in 2nd Gen.
Japanese society is famously sexist.... also the game was created by a woman.
Hey, what about the women?
I was going to comment on this. I wonder if there are any cards for women (dumb!) or if they’re just not mentioned in the article (dumb!).
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Interestingly, Japan is in the middle of its own version of Obergefell v. Hodges where several courts have ruled that the ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional and plaintiffs are currently awaiting the consolidated Supreme Court ruling.
This is unnecessarily antagonistic.
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Original video and articles (in Japanese)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m21OBCVPWo
https://www.fnn.jp/articles/-/842101
https://www.fnn.jp/articles/-/838709
That’s neat. I hope they expand it to include middle aged women in the community too.
Men statistically have fewer social connections and suffer more from loneliness as they get older, so if the goal is to remedy that, it makes sense to start with men first.
Is this true in Japan, too?
I don't have hard data but from my personal anecdote, I would say yes.
It's true for any intelligent species with sexual dimorphism.
However I agree; it's great that the initiative was started for those men, but they could totally hit up the older women in the area as well for an additional set.
I suspect it's worse in Japan.
I see no particular reason to discriminate even from the get-go. Nor was addressing loneliness even the goal.
If one house is on fire and you spray water on it to put out the fire, do you feel obligated to spray water on every other house too so that the other houses don't feel discriminated against?
Actually that is what you do to the houses next to the house on fire. So it doesn't spread to other buildings.
If you’re the fire department, acting on the governments behalf? Yes.
Fire departments spray water on not burning houses?
Yes. It is done when they think the neighbouring structure is at risk of catching fire.
That would still be prioritizing structures based on risk. Not just spraying random other houses in town because they feel left out.
In the current political climate, yes.
You could apply the same logic to "Women in X" groups. It's not discrimination as much as it is support.
It’s funny to me that the honest intent of my comment was merely “that’s neat, it would be cool to expand it to other members of the community” and people go straight to discrimination & indignation. Is it so hard to just express that it’d be cool to take a neat thing and expand it?
Seriously, I think the subtext is that people in the West equate Japanese = sexist (and therefore are an inferior people) and that the choice of focusing on ojisans, is a sexist decision made to degrade women.
When in reality it probably is just a light-hearted decision since old men are goofy, a lot of visible local businesses in rural Japan tend to be run by men, and the concept provoked a laugh.
I'd say the core reason is more that the person who started it was very much likely to be male and had a few existing connections to the group of men featured on the cards.
We should strive for equality where possible but to hold individuals account to it is tougher; we should enforce in our interactions/beliefs, that's personal responsibility.
But in play or for hobbies it's harder - the group of friends I play games with is all male for example (all gay, actually). But does that mean that I need to "diversity hire" a woman for the group? We'd have no problem with that at all, if a female friend asked to join when hearing about it we'd be all for it. But it's not like we're going to go out of our way to ensure that we have at least 1 woman in our play group. If that makes sense.
The article says it was made by a woman. Regardless I don’t agree we need to hold these people accountable for not making female cards, it’s their prerogative to do what they think makes sense or is appealing to them, and choosing ojisans as a theme makes sense if you have experience with Japanese culture because of the vibe associated with it. Not everything needs to be a gender equality culture battle, and I’m pretty confident nobody is feeling disenfranchised because they chose that theme.
>We should strive for equality where possible but to hold individuals account to it is tougher; we should enforce in our interactions/beliefs, that's personal responsibility.
To be clear, you think someone should be held accountable for not including women in this trend? What might that look like? Are we talking about new laws? Changing the values of society somehow so people will independently ostracize? Or just some more coordinated activist effort? What?
>But does that mean that I need to "diversity hire" a woman for the group? We'd have no problem with that at all, if a female friend asked to join when hearing about it we'd be all for it. But it's not like we're going to go out of our way to ensure that we have at least 1 woman in our play group.
Why not ask a woman to join on the basis of wanting to diversify? That seems entirely consistent with your stated values.
Lmao what are you on about
Japanese culture has quite a lot of sexism but so do many "western" countries some are better in some ways some are worse in some ways. And divide between "the West" and Japan isn't so huge Japan is fairly westernized in many ways. It's a rich liberal democracy with a lot of similarities to other rich liberal democracies we may label western.
> A lot of visible local businesses in rural Japan tend to be run by men
And you don't think that has anything to do with sexism in society?
You could say the same about people going straight to claims of sexism for a perfectly innocent story.
>Is it so hard to just express that it’d be cool to take a neat thing and expand it?
If people feel the need to do such a thing, they will do it without being asked.
Furthermore, the commentor is implying its sexist which totally seems unfair.
If you're referring to me, I don't think the mere observation that it would be fun to expand this to include women is me implying sexism. That honestly was not my intent, which I specifically was addressing in my follow up comment about how sad it is how quickly the responses devolved into sexism arguments.
So there is no problem with excluding women from these trading cards? Just that the entirely optional alternative to include them would be fun?
I would agree with that. Same as it would be fun to include younger people or non-Japanese people. Or dogs. Although it seems pretty random to just include everything that isnt currently the subject of these cards.
I'm not really following what your point is. The context in this case is pretty clearly geared towards connecting people across age generations. In that context, I merely observed that doing that for women would also be interesting. I don't see why you're branching off into random stuff like dogs.
I am equally interested in whether other non-Japanese cultures could do this too, although I suppose its popularity might not generalize across cultures. I don't know. Be interesting to try though, right?
Or is merely suggesting that deserving of some sort of criticism? The whole thing just made me think "why not share a neat thing with other groups". Dunno why that's such a big deal.
How is including dogs random? Its fun. You said you wanted to see women included because it would be fun.
> The context in this case is pretty clearly geared towards connecting people across age generations.
Well no. Its clearly connecting older Japanse men with kids. Which is why your comment about including women isnt non-sensical.
You said you wanted to include women because it would be fun and said your original comment shouldnt be interpreted to imply sexism. That avoids actually saying its not sexist so I could use some clarification now that it seems like its not just all about whats fun.
Do you think there is an element of sexism in excluding women on the trading cards?
No, I do not.
If anyone makes a similar comment in the reverse situation they’re dogpiled with “bUt WhAt AbOuT tHe MeNz?” comments.
Trading cards skew toward boys, and boys are more likely to look up to men. Of course, I wouldn't rule out old babaa cards either.
> I hope they expand it to include middle aged women in the community too.
Neighborhood MILFs and Cougars?
The special abilities write themselves
>Neighborhood MILFs and Cougars?
If they do that, some angry commenter on HN will shout about objectifying women.
As they should?
Objectification is natural in a species that reproduces via sexual reproduction.
The key is sexually objectifying (recognising an attraction) whilst respecting said individual.
As a gay dude I see _plenty_, _pleeeeeenty_ of women wantonly objectifying men when they choose to, with no repercussions or qualms. It's just unfortunate because of sexual dimorphism and expected behaviours, men are expected to take the more active role most of the time and hence these reprehensible behaviours are more common amongst men.
Would be really fun to be a god and tweak everyone's brains such that heterosexual men take the passive role just to see what happens.
> The key is sexually objectifying (recognising an attraction) whilst respecting said individual.
This sounds like an oxymoron.
Only if they also complain about all the other objectifications often glorified.
If we're going down this route I feel you should think about how likely it would have been that I got a similar response if I called out the objectification of men.
Almost nobody would and the ones who do would point out that people would say something if it was about women.
Note that my comment wasn't about different opinion based on sex but social framing.
dislike = objectification
like = empowerment
Yes, that’s exactly my point.
Nonsense. I can call out something wrong without the need to enumerate all other wrong things, too.
Its not about enumerating all of them but not ignoring or even celebrating them because its convenient and "its different when we do it"
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Reminds me of "Divorced Dads" playing cards
Yep, I totally expected this article to be about Divorced Dads inexplicably catching on with Japanese youth.
We're looking for house! Come on, house!
Holographic white Oakley's... not bad, it pairs with day drinking.
I tried to pull the house but got shingles instead
I wonder which one came first
Haha yep!
i needed an "oh, that's really nice" story today. this delivered.
in every way, this seems well-intentioned, quirky, cute, fun, and positive. unless there's some subtext i'm missing, this is just a good and nice thing happening that's great for everyone involved.
nice to have a story like that these days.
There are fundamental differences between Asian cultures and Western ones, particularly in how they view the individual versus the community, and the relationship between the young and the elderly. In many Asian cultures, the community is often placed above the individual, while in the West, individualism tends to take precedence. These perspectives have evolved differently over time, and each has its own advantages and drawbacks—there’s no single “correct” way.
That said, it would definitely be more challenging to implement this kind of community-first mindset in the U.S. or Europe.
This is a superb idea. I had seen random cat gacha but not trading cards of random dudes.
Most efforts at custom TCGs seem to go nowhere at all because of the absence of any practical trading meta game, so bootstrapping that with local interest is a very neat marketing move that aligns very well with the desired community engagement.
The result is that whole idea is greater than the sum of its parts.
The life expectancy in this area is impressive. Middle-aged men:
Mr. Honda (74) apparently expecting to live to 148
Mr. Takeshita (81) about to buy a high-powered motorcycle, perhaps
Mr. Fujii (68) has a new sports coupe and is on very good terms with his secretary, his wife has noticed
Reminds me of divorced dads card game https://www.youtube.com/@AudioOpera
Thank you! I knew it reminded me of something!
The comment here are a perfect example of how this could not exist in the west without some shitstorm trying to destroy it.
I guess continuing to ignore 3/4:1 male suicide rates is one "solution" to mitigate demographic aging..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicid...
Yeah Japanese culture is very, very different from the West. But it also comes with its own set of problems and challenges.
As a gay guy I've always thought about the topic in your last sentence; I agree that male problems (suicide rates, expectations, hypermasculinism etc) get largely ignored, in part due to a tightly integrated hierarchy of social rules and expectations - men (ignoring feelings, emotions, trying to be tough all the time) women (reliance on men, encouraging/supporting hypermasculine behaviours).
I find it both interesting & sad the way that heterosexual (& bisexual, etc) male behaviour completely changes (often for the worse) when a woman walks into the room. I don't see this as much at all in the opposite scenario, though I won't say that gay men don't sometimes exhibit the same aggressive behaviours that straight men often do.
It's just sad to watch men not care about certain aspects of themselves that are deemed weak, and that society has no value for men not attached to a family unit (hence the suicide rate). Also look at rates of homelessness - women are more likely to be taken in/given much more leeway by family etc than men are as a man down on his luck is a "problem" aka useless. It's the same with calling for women to be forced into drafts the same way men are - heterosexual response to that is staggering - the same frequency as the response I get as a man if I say I _don't_ want to fight in a war (aggression, being called a coward, the vitriol received for being a "draft dodger").
I know why it is the way it is, though and unlike many others I never forget that we're all still just animals at our very core.
>get largely ignored, in part due to a tightly integrated hierarchy of social rules and expectations
I think this might change in the future when men realize the social contract reward for it has been reduced to rubble.
>male behaviour completely changes (often for the worse) when a woman walks into the room
I observed this many times and disliked it to the point of acting the reverse (disinterested) which ironically resulted in the opposite outcome at least temporarily. I think it certainly applies to women too but is just less observable because its more passive instead of active. The standard of the average men is also a lot "lower" (actual average) compared to women's to get active.
>I think this might change in the future when men realize the social contract reward for it has been reduced to rubble.
That's a great point but I don't think it ever will. Said social contracts are dictated by our underlying biology and whilst we may adjust or tweak them over time the fundamentals of them will stay the same. But who knows, maybe I'll be surprised and the higher order social rules will completely overcome the lower order animal rules.
If there will be a change it will be driven by technology for better or worse. Maybe not change but replace, robot and ai companions come to mind.
> Kids have started attending local events and volunteering for community activities — just for a chance to meet the ojisan from their cards. Participation in town events has reportedly doubled since the game launched.
Kids involved in community seems to be the best result
This can only end one way...
In an animated tv show depicting middle-aged man battles by community-service-dance-off. May include flashing images.
My prediction is isekai.
Middle aged man with lousy card stats gets isekaied, and ends up with ridiculous stats hidden on the back of his card.
It already aired
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Bureaucrat_to_Villaines...
> A bureaucrat named Kenzaburo Tondabayashi is killed by a passing truck after saving a boy and is reborn in the Otome game Magical Academy: Love & Beast as its villainess, Grace Auvergne. Due to his politeness, he makes Grace's personality change into a more kind person and even becomes friends with the game's heroine, Anna Doll, whom the original Grace is antagonistic towards. Meanwhile, Kenzaburo's original body is revealed to have survived, but he is stuck in a coma. His wife and daughter discover that he is trapped in the game and attempt to help him complete it in hopes of getting him out
Oh my.
I'm starting to think there's a Rule 34 of Isekai.
This sounds like something straight out of the Yakuza video game series. Which, incidentally, is a series largely focused on middle aged men - I would love a set of these cards with Kiryu, Majima, Saejima, Akiyama, Ichiban, Nanba, Adachi, etc...
I thought the same thing. The sujimon in the Like a Dragon games are conceptually pretty similar (except it's various Yakuza mobs you're collecting).
Need a Nancy card so badly...
Wow this is so heartwarming. Actually celebrating "common humans" is so underrated. And kids doing this no less is even more amazing!
Ages 74, 81, and 68. Are these middle aged?
As I understand things, in Japanese the terms "onii-san", "ojisan" and "ojii-san" literally translate as "older brother", "uncle" and "grandpa" respectively - and are widely used for people who aren't relatives.
So while the colloquial use of ojisan roughly lines up with "middle-aged man" it's not a perfect mapping.
Ojisan age bracket can be pretty wide, but 81 sounds to me more like an ojiichan. That said, if they're running a business and are still somewhat lively they can possibly still pass as ojisan in context.
Oniisan is much younger usually; usually I don't hear ojiisan so much as ojiichan (as well as ojisan rather than ojichan), my wife is Japanese and it rubs her weird to hear the opposite honorific in these cases.
“Middle-aged” is a wrong in this case translation of “ojisan”, lit “uncle” but colloquially can mean “old man” in an endearing or mean way depending on context
In Japan, yes
Well, if the edges are the Japanese life expectancy of 84 and 0, then 80 does fall somewhere in the middle. So there should be some four-year-olds in this deck, too.
The whole point of this is that we've reached breaking point with the ridiculous attempt to replace everything with a digital experience. It is fitting that Japan, which was arguably the place where the digital revolution really took off, should be the first place where it is rejected.
The Oregon Graduate Institute (or maybe just the CS&E dept.) once made trading cards of the professors, to promote STEM to area children.
i think it would be interesting to allow each Ojisan to be in charge of distribution. some would freely hand out their cards to any who ask, while some might be more "stingy", awarding cards only to youth who impressed them. the game designer could periodically restock the Ojisan's supply and each generation of cards could be mechanically rebalanced to reflect the observed rarity.
I think AR or augmented reality games like this trading cards is the future of gaming, but this one is offline AR rather than online.
One of the best game I ever played is the text based souvenir game shopping game on Windows 3. I can't recall the name of the game now since it's more than 30 years ago, but it's about shopping souvenirs using London Underground Tube. You have a semi realistic time constraints like train schedules, your flight schedules and of course list of souvenirs items to shop. This is totally offline since there is no Internet available at the time but it's very engaging nonetheless.
My proposal for the modern version of the game is to use real-time train schedules (with delays, ticket discounts, etc) that are available publicly on the Internet for many metropolitan cities in the world for examples Tokyo, London and Berlin [1],[2],[3].
Imagine you can have a real-world realistic in-app in-game items purchases feature that you personally can buy in the game and delivered to you or anyone you fancy of giving souvenirs except that you only virtually went there.
[1] A real-time 3D digital map of Tokyo's public transport system (2023 - 103 comments):
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37829061
[2] Live map of London's Underground system:
https://traintimes.org.uk/map/tube/
[3] Show HN: Ubähnchen – Animated subway map of Berlin (2020 - 102 comments):
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32647227
[4] Berlin train info:
https://www.vbb.de/fahrinfo
Ngl that kind of pulls the fun out of it
As someone who got back into mtg recently, nah. I think physical games are going to hang around because there's just something different between playing games with friends on discord versus assembling at one of our houses to play.
Humans are social creatures.
I'm not proposing substitute physical games (do you meant real games like football?), this just augmenting computer games with real-time data.
You can even become a virtual personal shopper to interact with real clients, and getting paid as well.
Feels like a portal to the alternate universe we could have with modern technology but no mass media.
s/mass/social/g
This is unexpectedly brilliant and heart warming. Thank you for sharing.
This is such a wonderful thought. A great way to recognize the efforts put up by people in the community that often goes unnoticed and unappreciated.
> Middle-aged man trading cards Examples are Mr. Honda (74), Mr. Takeshita (81) and Mr. Fujii (68). Japanese are just built different I guess.
> The more actively the ojisan engages in volunteer work or community service, the higher the chances of their card being upgraded to a shiny version with a glossy laminated effect.
In systems like this, where artificial scarcity is seen as having value, making the cards _more common_ for good works seems like a perverse incentive; clearly, the best approach is to be Victor Meldrew, so as to have a rarer card.
Fascinating cultural phenomenon blending traditional trading cards with modern social media. Clever use of QR codes linking to biographical data. I wonder if future versions could incorporate digital signing and verification on the blockchain to create provably scarce digital collectibles. Potential model for other innovative physical-digital crossovers.
Your last idea there seems like it’s totally missing the point of these oji-san cards. It’s about connecting people to each other and forming community, not about scarcity, value or any other economic term.
> Seeing this, the game’s creator decided to take it to the next level. New rules were introduced, allowing the cards to be used in actual battles. The objective isn’t to defeat the opponent’s card but to outplay it based on the characters’ skills and abilities.
Anyone have an idea of how the gameplay works? How do you "outplay" your opponent?
Makes you think, if your life was reduced to a trading card, would anyone want it? For most, probably not.
This is so heart warming. I hope this action gains more interest to other cultures. By the looks of it, the rate of success is greater within a relatively small to medium community in size.
Apparently the "fat Steve" minecraft toy is sold out everywhere.
https://shop.mattel.com/products/minecraft-steve-large-scale...
I like the idea. On one hand it promotes usung heroes, people who did good for their community. On the other hand it helps establishing role models.
It's better if kids have these people as role models than random rock stars or movie stars.
These aren't middle-aged men, they're straight-up old.
"Ojisan" means something like "gramps". Though given how youth-oriented Japanese culture is, I suppose it could refer to any man 35 or older.
Ojisan (おじさん) is roughly "uncle." Ojiisan (おじいさん) is grandpa.
Same with obasan (おばさん) for aunt and obaasan (おばあさん) for grandma.
I thought it was a joke like https://divorceddads.shop/ It turns out it's something way more wholesome.
I don’t think “middle-aged” is quite the right translation.
Reminds me of this old SNL skit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzo73jYl3Ew
Fantastic idea. Curious if this works in my town as well
You can try it.
Interesting translation issue where they use the dictionary definition of "ossan" (middle aged guy) but then they're all senior citizens.
"Middle-aged man ..."
also:
"It features Mr. Honda (74), ... Mr. Takeshita (81), ... Mr. Fujii (68)"
Is this the new "middle-aged" in Japan?
All they need now is some irl sujimon!
MY TIME HAS FINALLY COME
Wait I'm actually elderly
Creativity thrives in Japan. I wonder why this country seems so prolific in that regards.
Japanese websites have a great aversion to even 2005 level Web homogeneity, let alone the modern tailstraps.
OK, Row 2 Column 2 has to be a mashup of George Bush and Barack Obama right?
https://www.tokyoweekender.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/oj...
And Elon Musk + Jeff Bezos is on there as well.
This such a genius idea to get the kids to learn about the people in their community.
Wow! What a fantastic idea!
How come the men on the cards have Magic/Mana Points (MP)?
This is a stupid idea that couldn't possibly work. But it did?
They should have called these Salarymon cards.
Ojisan as in O.G.san as in Old Gangster san?
Erm, are there some for middle aged women to?
Three months after loosing my Mum one realises and appreciates what a huge amount she did for so many people.
the idea is great by itself. However it highlights a big problem in today western society.
I NEED TO GO TO JAPAN NOW.
I love this so much.
I would add some obasan - the female counterpart of "ojisan"
“Japan has always had deep subcultures around games, cards, and character design — but what’s new is how global social platforms amplify them. It feels like TikTok is acting as a cross-cultural layer over local fandoms. Could this become a driver for new forms of cross-border cultural products?”
Wait, what does Japan know that 79 year old men are middle aged?
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What is going on at the end of this comment? Are LLMs posting on HN now?
Looks like they edited it to remove that end section that shows they just copied directly from an LLM, so here is the original ending of the comment for posterity...
Maybe the solution to preserving cultural heritage isn't always high-tech digital archives, but finding ways to make tradition relevant within existing social practices. RetryGIs this to academic?EditNot at all! Your comment is engaging and conversational rather than academic. It strikes a good balance between showing expertise and remaining accessible.
check out their submissions. nearly all the recent ones have the same structure
Feels like some kind of astroturfing. I found it very sad seeing how many people had interacted with the posts on good faith. How are we going to deal with this kind of engagement farming in our online communities going forward? Do we need AIs looking for other AIs and flagged accounts?
Every one claims experience in the topic too
People can be so lame
If this is state of the art LLM output, I think any competent journalist should be safe for the next few .... months?
HN in terminal + LLM comment editor + some formatting error. Account is more than 10 years old, probably not a bot.
Looks like it
"Rural Japan" checks notes. Pop 1.7M
More like 10000 [1]
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawara,_Fukuoka
Why only men? Women don't exist in any important role in their society?
Why are so many comments getting hung up on this?
If the (presumably) male at the community center had painted a portrait of the three older buddies he had in the community, would you all be asking "why does that painting only have men in it?"
I agree that they should do women next, given the unexpected popularity of what is presumably a pet project - but it's not hard to understand the very simple & obvious reasons why the first set of cards didn't feature women.
Imagine boys and girls could have their own gender being represented and they would compete with each other in that card game, or if it's not like "Magic: the gathering", at least interact around arguing who is better. But here, girls are completely excluded from any such interaction, like: "Nope, you don't exist." Girls, who should they look up to? Having both, it allows both genders to choose whom to admire.
I actually do not see the obvious reason. Maybe I missed something. My take is Japan has what some would call a gender stereotypical view. What is surprising to me is how a whole gender is excluded from something that creates much fun interaction and play. It feels surprising especially also when the project is supposed to represent a community. I almost feel bad pointing it out, because the project is so wholesome, but it's simply what I see.
I have a European lense, and I am sure I am not aware of many things of their culture. But, I am struggling to see how it's not a blunt confirmation of typical western feminist critique. Of course, Japanese society may have another cultural framework to rationalize it, where any such critique wouldn't even be recognized to be rational. That, in itself, reflects a possible large discrepancy in cultural views.
(edit: I don't think the creator did any wrong, I think they acted within their frame. Maybe the product wouldn't be as successfully otherwise. My inquiry is at the level of culture and it's undercurrent of values dictating what's successfully and to what degree an artifact is based in cultural values and re-affirm those, well transcending mere artistic choice and artistic appreciation which should be free.)
(edit 2, psychoanalysis: the artist framing males within cards... Males being looked up to... The artist psychologically in perhaps a Lacanian sense, is "looking up" to expressions of the mighty, assertive phallocentric values constituting society. The artist mediating societal core views by making this artifact, enacts those values by admiration, and mediates those values to the right population, boys, who by their mere gender, are both the protectors and the representations of society's core view. I suspect Japan is a phallocentric society more so than not.)
I notice you didn't include them making cards for gay individuals in their community in your argument. As a gay man I definitely and most certainly feel offended, like being told I don't exist because your argument focussed only on women being represented.
Do you see what I mean? I 100% agree that both men and women, gay, straight and every other group all need to be properly represented in society where it matters. But battles should be picked & chosen.
I agree, and think I see the problem you point at. We don't have to include more groups because, if we do for the sake of including, we have to include all endless variations because there's always a new invented category feeling excluded, and they use it as a power game to ruin the fun for others (seriously). And then what about the argument every obscene category should be included, which by the way would proves the existence of common sense of opposing that....
But, this inquiry of mine had me sympathize more with the recent political trends, that I otherwise think go too far in certain ways. It sucks to not be made visible---or perhaps purposefully made invisible---in the society you live in.
In this case, hypothetically, if one of the men is openly of another orientation, would he be included in the deck? Would society accept that? No, his orientation should not be mentioned in the card, as his orientation has nothing to do with his occupation which is the focal point of the card, but would society even allow him to be featured to begin with, given he is of another orientation? (These are just suggested questions, I don't ask for answer to them).
Trading cards cather to young boys. They look up to men.
I share your sentiment, I don’t believe that important women don’t exist there. Surely there has been some kind of bias here. Does anyone else agree?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43618143
I feel like this is the kind of stuff that will be common with AI. Imagine having a whatsapp family group and a bot auto-generates this type of games for you based on your group.
It's a privacy nightmare but it will be fun for sure.
The whole point of this is that it’s people thinking about people, not some AI bullshit.
AI can facilitate the creation part and become invisible. It will still be p2p.